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3 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

If memory serves me right, 2017 Altuve was a monster on the road 

He was lights-out more productive on the road in 2017. His OPS was 1.081 in road games, .834 in games at Minute Maid.

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  • Here's the thing that makes me absolutely livid about this... Cheating happens all the time in baseball. At all levels. All levels. The MLB itself cheats the game by juicing the ball. Players juiced t

  • Asithappens
    Asithappens

    It's not the end, I agree. The Astros are still sacks of giant shit, though.  Shame on them.

  • Asithappens
    Asithappens

    Very sad to see that the Astros are basically dipshit cheaters from the top down. Hey, at least the Black Sox are happy that someone else is wearing their crown of infamy.    

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6 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Actually I thought it was a good article.  Other owners are going to vent, and it does indeed seem like the commish limited his focus to only what he pretty much had to pursue, perhaps giving Crane a bit of a pass. Manfred couldn't be blinded by the light of this oncoming trainwreck, he had to balance a lot of issues for the supposed overall good of the game.  Hammer the Astros too hard, like vacating the World Series, and wouldn't Crane have the opportunity to sue and get into discovery for nearly every other team, especially the big names that kept coming up in rumors of similar (though not to the same scale) cheating via electronics and other means (not just guys on base or in the dugout stealing signs.)  Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, etc.  (Rangers, too, though MLB probably still doesn't view them as quite the same cash cows needing protection.)   

Since Cora was an Astros in 2017 and the Red Sox had already been busted, he had no choice but to expand the investigation to them, and perhaps the Mets.  The article says he promised to look into the 8 teams the Astros named, but I bet it will end up being, "We couldn't find the level of proof needed to pursue further" or some slaps on the wrist for most:

Already this has stretched beyond his level of comfort. Initially, Manfred planned on limiting the investigation to the Astros. Now MLB is looking into the Red Sox -- and considering that their use of an Apple Watch to relay signs in August 2017 was the original sin of modern technological cheating, the penalties for any second offense could be severe. Though they're the only other team with a known investigation pending, Sports Illustrated reported that the Astros named eight other teams they believe cheated in 2017 and 2018 -- and Crane said "the commissioner assured me that every team and every allegation will be checked out."

Edited by clapclapclap

1 hour ago, Guadaloopy said:

So how were the Nats cheating?

Dodger fan is handling this poorly.

It's very entertaining.

16 minutes ago, C-Man said:

He was lights-out more productive on the road in 2017. His OPS was 1.081 in road games, .834 in games at Minute Maid.

It is kind of funny that all this cheating was happening at home and the Astros were clearly a better road team across the board in 2017.  They were also so much better on the road in 2018 that articles were being written about it by midseason.  Only in 2019 were they better at home than on the road, and we all know how that worked out in the WS.

It kind of leads one to believe that the sign stealing not only didn't help, but hindered the Astros at home.  Maybe there is value in being prepared for any pitch rather than expecting a single type of pitch and trying to knock it out of the park.  There are a lot of variables other than pitch type that can keep balls in the park.  Sign stealing would probably work better for singles hitters who would aim for the gaps instead of the fences.

3 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

Though they're the only other team with a known investigation pending, Sports Illustrated reported that the Astros named eight other teams they believe cheated in 2017 and 2018 -- and Crane said "the commissioner assured me that every team and every allegation will be checked out."

This will really make the Astros popular.

MLB is becoming the SEC circa the 90s, when every school was ratting each other out to the NCAA.

2 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

MLB is becoming the SEC circa the 90s, when every school was ratting each other out to the NCAA.

So I guess next it will become the SEC of the 00s and 10s and we'll have Red Sox fans cheering on the Yankees in the World Series because AL! AL! AL!

The talk of taking title away is bs. Lets strip the red sox for having 2 known ped users on thier roster. Same goes for yankees. Fans cant bash the astros for cheating when you can go back and make legit claims against alot of other organizations

4 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

If memory serves me right, 2017 Altuve was a monster on the road 

 

20 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Dodger fan is handling this poorly.

It's very entertaining.

Most of them (resident Bruin excluded) probably rooted their heads off for ‘03-‘05 USC and still have their championship gear.  

14 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

It is kind of funny that all this cheating was happening at home and the Astros were clearly a better road team across the board in 2017.  They were also so much better on the road in 2018 that articles were being written about it by midseason.  Only in 2019 were they better at home than on the road, and we all know how that worked out in the WS.

It kind of leads one to believe that the sign stealing not only didn't help, but hindered the Astros at home.  Maybe there is value in being prepared for any pitch rather than expecting a single type of pitch and trying to knock it out of the park.  There are a lot of variables other than pitch type that can keep balls in the park.  Sign stealing would probably work better for singles hitters who would aim for the gaps instead of the fences.

During the regular season, the Astros were 48-33 at home and 53-28 on the road. But in the postseason the Astros scored 51 runs and were 8-1 in home games. They scored 27 runs and were 3-6 in road games.

The reason I don't give a flying fuck is because no matter how many analysis you have proving certain guys didn't cheat or if it was every single AB for every game all through the world series or not people still bitch and moan and whine and call the astros cheaters. So fuck em who cares. When the season starts a lot of this will be put to rest for the dumb asses that think Altuve and Bregman and Springer and all the rest of the lineup are "Only" good because of the aid of a trash can bang.

I hate to break it to people but even with the aid of knowing what's coming you still have to be able to hit the ball and against professional pitchers tossing 90-100mph it's still not that easy. The Astros have great hitters and I think when the season starts and we are still in 1st and win 100 games a lot of this bs will die down. 

15 minutes ago, C-Man said:

During the regular season, the Astros were 48-33 at home and 53-28 on the road. But in the postseason the Astros scored 51 runs and were 8-1 in home games. They scored 27 runs and were 3-6 in road games.

Soooo, how many games during the regular season was Verlander a Tiger?  How many games did Correa, Spring, and other starters miss in the regular season?

In the WS the Dodgers averaged 3.33 runs per game at home, 7 per game in Houston.  So would you say it seems clear that the Dodgers were cheating at Minute Maid?

Edited by clapclapclap

Another thing to keep in mind when looking at the Astros' home/road batting splits from 2017 is that Minute Maid Park was the #1 pitcher's park in the AL that year.

2 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

Soooo, how many games during the regular season was Verlander a Tiger?  How many games did Correa, Spring, and other starters miss in the regular season?

Not sure I follow. Just pointing out the Astros were a better team on the road during the regular season but completely flipped the script in the postseason.

3 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Another thing to keep in mind when looking at the Astros' home/road batting splits from 2017 is that Minute Maid Park was the #1 pitcher's park in the AL that year.

Well that presents a chicken or egg question.  50% of the at bats in MMP were Astros.  Were they hitting worse because pitchers were pitching better or were pitching stats better because the Astros were hitting worse?

8 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Not sure I follow. Just pointing out the Astros were a better team on the road during the regular season but completely flipped the script in the postseason.

I'd say the 8-1 at home in the post-season probably has something to do with the Astros being at full strength, having better pitching depth, pitching matchups, and other factors.  Hard to factor in how much difference any cheating method would make.

But bottom line, we wouldn't be having these questions and speculations if the Astros hadn't resorted to next-level cheating.

Edited by clapclapclap

13 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

I hate to break it to people but even with the aid of knowing what's coming you still have to be able to hit the ball and against professional pitchers tossing 90-100mph it's still not that easy.

Whatever, it's a whole hell of a lot easier if you know what's coming.  

 

8 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Well that presents a chicken or egg question.  50% of the at bats in MMP were Astros.  Were they hitting worse because pitchers were pitching better or were pitching stats better because the Astros were hitting worse?

Unless I'm mistaken, those park factors take into account the visiting teams too -- they pitched better at MMP than in every other ballpark in the AL.

7 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

I'd say the 8-1 at home in the post-season probably has something to do with the Astros being at full strength, having better pitching depth, pitching matchups, and other factors.  Hard to factor in how much difference any cheating method would make.

But bottom line, we wouldn't be having these questions and speculations if the Astros hadn't resorted to next-level cheating.

They scored nearly twice as many runs and won eight of nine home games during the postseason. Historically, home teams wins slightly more than road teams in the MLB playoffs (the 2019 WS notwithstanding) but it's not near the advantage it is in the NFL or NBA.

4 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

The 2014 Astros team was one of the worst in the league. This invalidates the theory that if you know what’s coming then you can hit it. 

OK then.

43 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

The reason I don't give a flying fuck is because no matter how many analysis you have proving certain guys didn't cheat or if it was every single AB for every game all through the world series or not people still bitch and moan and whine and call the astros cheaters. So fuck em who cares. When the season starts a lot of this will be put to rest for the dumb asses that think Altuve and Bregman and Springer and all the rest of the lineup are "Only" good because of the aid of a trash can bang.

I hate to break it to people but even with the aid of knowing what's coming you still have to be able to hit the ball and against professional pitchers tossing 90-100mph it's still not that easy. The Astros have great hitters and I think when the season starts and we are still in 1st and win 100 games a lot of this bs will die down. 

The Astros were a good baseball team and the players you cite are exceptionally talented baseball players. But they still cheated. They aren't good baseball players because they cheated. But being good doesn't mean that they didn't cheat. The Astros cheated their way to a title that will forever be viewed with an asterisk by pretty much every baseball fan not born in Houston. 

Edited by irishtexan

Yeah.  Barry Bonds was one of the greatest hitters of all time.  And one of the biggest cheaters.  

 

Anyway, I'll take leave of this thread.  Sorry for crashing the party.

6 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Yeah.  Barry Bonds was one of the greatest hitters of all time.  And one of the biggest cheaters.  

 

Anyway, I'll take leave of this thread.  Sorry for crashing the party.

There is likely nothing left to be said.  Good luck this season.

1 minute ago, Sbbruin said:

Yeah.  Barry Bonds was one of the greatest hitters of all time.  And one of the biggest cheaters.  

 

Anyway, I'll take leave of this thread.  Sorry for crashing the party.

And Barry Bonds is going to be in the Hall of Fame.

4 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

The Astros were a good baseball team and the players you cite are exceptionally talented baseball players. But they still cheated. They aren't good baseball players because they cheated. But being good doesn't mean that they didn't cheat. The Astros cheated their way to a title that will forever be viewed with an asterisk by pretty much every baseball fan not born in Houston. 

You Ranger fans may even be whinier than Dodger fans.  

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

You Ranger fans may even be whinier than Dodger fans.  

Which is funny, because they've been cheating, too.

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

And Barry Bonds is going to be in the Hall of Fame.

He should be.  They let Pudge in. 

19 hours ago, cabowabo said:

So, what’s gonna be the cute motto for 2020?

“Smell Our Taint”

22 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

The Astros were a good baseball team and the players you cite are exceptionally talented baseball players. But they still cheated. They aren't good baseball players because they cheated. But being good doesn't mean that they didn't cheat. The Astros cheated their way to a title that will forever be viewed with an asterisk by pretty much every baseball fan not born in Houston. 

I don't know, I think the winds will shift on Houston as soon as the Boston investigation results are released.  We're going to find out that every good team was cheating, so there's no point in assigning asterisks to any of them.  

6 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I don't know, I think the winds will shift on Houston as soon as the Boston investigation results are released.  We're going to find out that every good team was cheating, so there's no point in assigning asterisks to any of them.  

Lol

Just now, immortal13 said:

Lol

No one is going to care after awhile. You know that. That's why you are upset.

it's a pretty limited basket or collection of players who were using this sign stealing system.  some were steadfastly against any and all distractions at the plate.  classifying the entire team and organization as "cheaters" is an oversimplification, but about what I expect from today's "cancel" culture.  that is, in no way a defense of them cheating.  THey did.  

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

No one is going to care after awhile. You know that. That's why you are upset.

true.  everyone knows USC won the 2003 and 2004 MNC.  

Quote

 Fans can't bash the Astros for cheating when you can go back and make legit claims against a lot of other organizations.

Absolutely they can. 

Being a cheater amongst a bunch of other cheaters doesn't make one any less of a cheater, does it?  Cheaters gain no advantage against other cheaters.  That is just a push, more or less.  Cheaters seek to gain an advantage over those who are honest and don't cheat.  Cheating  pays off against those who are those who ARE following the rules. 

Also, saying "I am no worse than all of the the rest of the outed sleazeballs!" isn't a very flattering way to define oneself throughout a career or even a life.

 

3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I don't know, I think the winds will shift on Houston as soon as the Boston investigation results are released.  We're going to find out that every good team was cheating, so there's no point in assigning asterisks to any of them.  

He is just holding out hope that it goes all the way back to the 2011 Cards, so he can finally wear the Rangers Champs shirt that he stole from some poor Ethiopian kid with pride.

There aren't going to be asterisks, do-overs, or even league apologies no matter what else is found.  Y'all have some short memories.  It isn't like the steroid era was so long ago.  Not a single asterisk even considered.  Not for Arod's WS team.  Not for Clemens' WS team either.  Clemens even had roid rage incidents on the field.   They did get HOF soft bans, but you aren't even going to see that with any current Astro that ends up with HOF worthy stats.

Steroids was also a bigger deal than sign stealing.  Sign stealing has been around forever and will continue to be around as long as signs are still used.  Steroids is a step below putting in bionic body parts to improve performance.

5 hours ago, David Dennison said:

You're equating criminal laws with the rules of baseball?

Get a grip.

I am saying what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong.  Can you get a grip on that premise? (Obviously not if you are arguing against it)

2 minutes ago, Cornfusion said:

I am saying what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong.  Can you get a grip on that premise? (Obviously not if you are arguing against it)

I don't think there is anything wrong with stealing signs.

5 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

But the notion that all these players are "tainted" now

Dude, do you even do reality???  It's not a "notion".  It's a fact.  "Notions" don't carry a $5 million price tag and suspensions and losing draft choices.

Just now, Cornfusion said:

Dude, do you even do reality???  It's not a "notion".  It's a fact.  "Notions" don't carry a $5 million price tag and suspensions and losing draft choices.

That's called sweeping it under the rug and doing the bare minimum.

If MLB was serious they would punish players.

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with stealing signs

MLB baseball says it was.  So I guess you will just have to disagree with it.  We can't argue opinions, so I guess we are done.

Just now, Cornfusion said:

Dude, do you even do reality???  It's not a "notion".  It's a fact.  "Notions" don't carry a $5 million price tag and suspensions and losing draft choices.

The players received no punishment at all. That's who I specifically mentioned. I am referring to people claiming that "Altuve only won the MVP because he cheated" and the like. There is not much evidence that the scheme had any measurable impact on performance. 

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

That's called sweeping it under the rug and doing the bare minimum.

If MLB was serious they would punish players.

I will wholeheartedly agree with that.

1 minute ago, Cornfusion said:

MLB baseball says it was.  So I guess you will just have to disagree with it.  We can't argue opinions, so I guess we are done.

It was so egregious not a single player was punished in any way.

 

Imagine, a sport where cheating has been engrained into the fabric of the game for as long as it has been around....whether it be through using emory boards to scuff up balls by the pitcher, corked bats, using steroids, using pine tar (looking at you Mike Fiers you hypocritical piece of shit), hacking into other teams' databases, using Vaseline, gambling on games, using Apple Watches and other electronics in the dugout, etc.....and people act like the Astros are the ONLY team engaging in sign stealing?  Like this is an Astros problem and not an MLB problem? Get the fuck out of here with that bull shit.  Yes the Astros cheated, no they shouldn't have done it, yes they should be punished.  But for them to get the punishment they did while others skate by and people still think they didn't get punished enough?  FOH with all that asterisk shit 

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