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5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I need some advice:  I've been asked to consult on a ground-up swiss army knife approach to a powered speaker that could function in multiple roles, those mostly being PA, guitar and bass.  Now, it's my opinion that those are three different animals, but modern signal processing has gotten way better in the last couple of decades, and it might be possible to build something that's pretty useful in live situations.  To some degree it is already being done, so question (a) would be for feedback on which brands/models are the "best" of these amps.  Cost is not necessarily a major concern there.

Question (b):  it seems highly unlikely that anything but a very specific few amps could be built in and controlled via traditional knobs and switches; say, PA, Ampeg B15 bass amp, and Marshall JCM 800 guitar amp.  That would be very limiting.  My mind rapidly goes to something that is at the very least controlled through a touch screen, and even more likely, controlled via an external controller (iPad, etc.).  I've seen the latter done for PA rigs that are actually mixed in the operator's hands, and it didn't seem to be an ergonomic nightmare.  Of course, don't lose the controller.  Do THESE options exist for guitar and bass rigs?  Would it bother you guitar/bass players to have to dial in your amp choice, change settings (volume, gain, EQ, reverb, etc.) this way?  Is it unreasonable in a live setting?

I don't want to get into the reasons why this product might be differentiated from what's already out there.  Suffice it to say, there would be differences.

 

I think these options are basically already out there with modelers. All the cover band brigade is already in on FRFR speakers and shit as we speak, it seems to me that the main thing on this would be software as these things are pretty siloed right now, ie. they just have say guitar settings on them. If you loaded it up with profiles for all the uses you outline I think you would be most of the way there.

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1 minute ago, G650 said:

I think these options are basically already out there with modelers. All the cover band brigade is already in on FRFR speakers and shit as we speak, it seems to me that the main thing on this would be software as these things are pretty siloed right now, ie. they just have say guitar settings on them. If you loaded it up with profiles for all the uses you outline I think you would be most of the way there.

Yeah I've seen plenty that seem way evolved beyond the early Line 6 shit (and by "shit" I mean "shit").  I should have been clear -- I am not expecting this product to break ground in the modeling/simulation world, the differentiation is elsewhere.  Can you point me to those products that are considered best in class?

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Yeah I've seen plenty that seem way evolved beyond the early Line 6 shit (and by "shit" I mean "shit").  I should have been clear -- I am not expecting this product to break ground in the modeling/simulation world, the differentiation is elsewhere.  Can you point me to those products that are considered best in class?

 

@Goredho probably has a better feel for that stuff than I do, but most I see with big pros are the Fractal AxeFX or the Kemper. Line 6 does make the Helix which I think is pretty popular too but probably a little more low end

 

If you want 100 watt Marshall advice, then I'm your guy.

 
I think these options are basically already out there with modelers. All the cover band brigade is already in on FRFR speakers and shit as we speak, it seems to me that the main thing on this would be software as these things are pretty siloed right now, ie. they just have say guitar settings on them. If you loaded it up with profiles for all the uses you outline I think you would be most of the way there.

What is “FRFR”?
2 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:


What is “FRFR”?

Full Range Flat Response.  Basically, a PA speaker, maybe packaged differently.

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I need some advice:  I've been asked to consult on a ground-up swiss army knife approach to a powered speaker that could function in multiple roles, those mostly being PA, guitar and bass.  Now, it's my opinion that those are three different animals, but modern signal processing has gotten way better in the last couple of decades, and it might be possible to build something that's pretty useful in live situations.  To some degree it is already being done, so question (a) would be for feedback on which brands/models are the "best" of these amps.  Cost is not necessarily a major concern there.

Question (b):  it seems highly unlikely that anything but a very specific few amps could be built in and controlled via traditional knobs and switches; say, PA, Ampeg B15 bass amp, and Marshall JCM 800 guitar amp.  That would be very limiting.  My mind rapidly goes to something that is at the very least controlled through a touch screen, and even more likely, controlled via an external controller (iPad, etc.).  I've seen the latter done for PA rigs that are actually mixed in the operator's hands, and it didn't seem to be an ergonomic nightmare.  Of course, don't lose the controller.  Do THESE options exist for guitar and bass rigs?  Would it bother you guitar/bass players to have to dial in your amp choice, change settings (volume, gain, EQ, reverb, etc.) this way?  Is it unreasonable in a live setting?

I don't want to get into the reasons why this product might be differentiated from what's already out there.  Suffice it to say, there would be differences.

Traveling today, but would look at Laney amps for role number one.  I have this one, and it’s great.  12” plus horn, 5 channels, fx loop, built in EQ and delay, line out to go to a PA if you need more reinforcement.  I’ve run guitars through it (acoustic w/preamp and electric w/modeler), bass (w/modeler/preamp), keyboard (straight), mics (XLR) and even iPhone for backing tracks with RCA inputs.  I’ve had a trio use this as the only amplification in a small bar/coffee shop setting.  It’s a great Swiss Army knife that’s basically a 5 channel PA, amp and full range speaker built into a 1x12 combo enclosure and is designed exactly for what you are describing.  Will see about answering B in a few.
 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AH150--laney-ah150-150w-12-inch-multi-input-combo-amp?mrkgadid=1000000&mrkgcl=28&mrkgen=gdsa&mrkgbflag=0&mrkgcat=studio&recording&acctid=21700000001645388&dskeywordid=39700065017603469&lid=39700065017603469&ds_s_kwgid=58700007231540659&device=m&network=g&matchtype=&adpos=largenumber&locationid=9029128&creative=706902477314&targetid=aud-439454427786:dsa-1385849839650&campaignid=13710079600&awsearchcpc=1&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4rK8BhD7ARIsAFe5LXJzyJO4stbVUOj_PMKGtIQpbxLH60dGjPDGxcg-l892ASy68exL2F0aAjHZEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

 

IMG_8235.jpeg

IMG_8237.jpeg

10 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Traveling today, but would look at Laney amps for role number one.  I have this one, and it’s great.  12” plus horn, 5 channels, fx loop, built in EQ and delay, line out to go to a PA if you need more reinforcement.  I’ve run guitars through it (acoustic w/preamp and electric w/modeler), bass (w/modeler/preamp), keyboard (straight), mics (XLR) and even iPhone for backing tracks with RCA inputs.  I’ve had a trio use this as the only amplification in a small bar/coffee shop setting.  It’s a great Swiss Army knife that’s basically a 5 channel PA, amp and full range speaker built into a 1x12 combo enclosure and is designed exactly for what you are describing.  Will see about answering B in a few.

Thanks, I appreciate it.  If I wasn't clear, I'm not in the market, this is market research for a design project.  I want to know what's currently out there and what kind of limitations currently exist.

That said, would any of you have a problem controlling your amp from a tablet or phone?  I guess a linked footswitch would make that less intrusive on stage.

19 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Thanks, I appreciate it.  If I wasn't clear, I'm not in the market, this is market research for a design project.  I want to know what's currently out there and what kind of limitations currently exist.

That said, would any of you have a problem controlling your amp from a tablet or phone?  I guess a linked footswitch would make that less intrusive on stage.

Gotcha.  So that Laney amp would be a direct market competitor for what you are investigating.  I would say it works great, but for guitars, you need that other thing that will emulate the guitar amp and cab, then the Laney or any such product just amplifies that with little to no colour.  A lot of people just use a PA.  I would look at the new Fender FR-10 as a competitor, but it’s just kind of marketing itself as FRFR for guitar amp modeling.

I use modelers live all the time.  I don’t use via laptop, phone or tablet.  I go for UAFX pedals and the Tonex One pedal.  I go for pedal-based hardware for a couple reasons.  First, a tablet feels fragile.  Knock it off a stand, there goes your gig.

Second is more logistic and how it incorporates it into a signal chain with pedals and all that.  I don’t want to connect tablet to interface, have stuff running from my feet to the interface on a stand, back down to crap at my feet, etc…. With it all being pedalboard based, it can all stay wired up.  I pull out the pedalboard, plug guitar into the first pedal in the chain, plug the last pedal into an FRFR speaker like the Laney and then go.  I’m lazy like that.

A new product that could mitigate those issues would be interesting.  I would look into the speaker cabinet providing a docking station for your phone so the phone physically becomes one with the speaker/cabinet, then have a traditional amp fx loop in the back so you can connect it with a pedalboard like you would a normal tube amp.  The phone would provide the DSP brain with whatever software you provide.  You also might want to provide an impulse response loader in the speaker cabinet to provide speaker sounds so that doesn’t need to draw from the phone.

Edited by Goredho

5 minutes ago, Goredho said:

A new product that could mitigate those issues would be interesting.  I would look into the speaker cabinet providing a docking station for your phone so the phone physically becomes one with the speaker/cabinet, then have a traditional amp fx loop in the back so you can connect it with a pedalboard like you would a normal tube amp.  The phone would provide the DSP brain with whatever software you provide.  You also might want to provide an impulse response loader in the speaker cabinet to provide speaker sounds so that doesn’t need to draw from the phone.

Thank you very much, all of these are ideas worthy of consideration.  In "PA mode", the docking station etc. just doesn't get used.

There will be DSP in the cabinet, regardless, although that doesn't necessarily have to be the entire DSP processing power on tap.

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Thank you very much, all of these are ideas worthy of consideration.  In "PA mode", the docking station etc. just doesn't get used.

There will be DSP in the cabinet, regardless, although that doesn't necessarily have to be the entire DSP processing power on tap.

Cool.  I would look at the Positive Grid Spark, too.  It’s a pretty great product, but is pretty strictly in the “practice amp” space.  I couldn’t imagine using it at a gig, but it’s primarily controlled via phone app and they’ve done a good job with app interface, etc…

if you could have something that combined the small gig versatility of the Laney I linked with the modeling/control/app of the Spark that had a docking station for your phone, I’d be very interested in the product.

PS I expect a prototype to beta test 😜

7 minutes ago, Goredho said:

PS I expect a prototype to beta test 😜

Did I mention how long it can take to get a product to market?  Take whatever # you're thinking of and double it, minimum.  :)

 

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Did I mention how long it can take to get a product to market?  Take whatever # you're thinking of and double it, minimum.  :)

 

Dude, have you seen my gear buying habits?  I’m as patient as a teenagers first orgasm.  Looking forward to playing it in 2 weeks!

Dude, have you seen my gear buying habits?  I’m as patient as a teenagers first orgasm.  Looking forward to playing it in 2 weeks!

Y’all gather round. Goredho has reached peak self awareness. You should all bear witness.
  • Author
8 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I need some advice:  I've been asked to consult on a ground-up swiss army knife approach to a powered speaker that could function in multiple roles, those mostly being PA, guitar and bass.  Now, it's my opinion that those are three different animals, but modern signal processing has gotten way better in the last couple of decades, and it might be possible to build something that's pretty useful in live situations.  To some degree it is already being done, so question (a) would be for feedback on which brands/models are the "best" of these amps.  Cost is not necessarily a major concern there.

Question (b):  it seems highly unlikely that anything but a very specific few amps could be built in and controlled via traditional knobs and switches; say, PA, Ampeg B15 bass amp, and Marshall JCM 800 guitar amp.  That would be very limiting.  My mind rapidly goes to something that is at the very least controlled through a touch screen, and even more likely, controlled via an external controller (iPad, etc.).  I've seen the latter done for PA rigs that are actually mixed in the operator's hands, and it didn't seem to be an ergonomic nightmare.  Of course, don't lose the controller.  Do THESE options exist for guitar and bass rigs?  Would it bother you guitar/bass players to have to dial in your amp choice, change settings (volume, gain, EQ, reverb, etc.) this way?  Is it unreasonable in a live setting?

I don't want to get into the reasons why this product might be differentiated from what's already out there.  Suffice it to say, there would be differences.

The Fender 400PS should be the starting point. :)

 

Fender_400_PS_-_Front_iqqz2l.jpg

 

Or the PA100

exg09vyckvyktd7xo9x0.jpg

Edited by dcbc

If I wanted something that could be a guitar amp, bass amp, and a pa I’d build a modeler into the EV Evolve series…Tower line array PA with a sub. Mixer is accomplished via an iPad app hooked in through Bluetooth. Sound is fantastic. Seems like it shouldn’t be that hard to add modeling capability, and controlled by the app.

https://products.electrovoice.com/na/en/evolve/

That's all well and good, but what we will bring to the table will be the compact nature of the solution.  The loudspeaker itself.

I guess I don’t really follow the question or that response correctly then

6 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

I guess I don’t really follow the question or that response correctly then

I may have misunderstood your response -- this is not an incremental improvement on an existing product, this is a new product from a new (ish) company with some compelling loudspeaker IP.

I’m just saying that’s what I’d design. A tower array type pa with a modular built in.

If I wanted something that could be a guitar amp, bass amp, and a pa I’d build a modeler into the EV Evolve series…Tower line array PA with a sub. Mixer is accomplished via an iPad app hooked in through Bluetooth. Sound is fantastic. Seems like it shouldn’t be that hard to add modeling capability, and controlled by the app.

https://products.electrovoice.com/na/en/evolve/
I've played thru one of those the last two weeks. They are really great sounding.

Yea we’ve been using one for a couple of years for our gigs. Really really good imo.

You'll buy a Marshall amp, and an hour later, you'll want to buy another. 

10 hours ago, tbone_ said:

Well so much for Marshall I guess

 

I mean they were already primarily owned by a Swedish conglomerate. Not much of a change i would venture.

Well it's possible

Arrested Development Mistake GIF

 

But one I think @Deej would approve of.

  • 2 weeks later...

Am I correct in thinking Hawkins Texas is in the middle of nowhere?

Am I correct in thinking Hawkins Texas is in the middle of nowhere?

East Texas. So yes.
17 minutes ago, Handcruser said:


East Texas. So yes.

 

Yeah, I've driven through there but it was like 25 years ago.

 

At any rate I found another amp from someone who would ship, so that problem took care of itself.

 
Yeah, I've driven through there but it was like 25 years ago.
 
At any rate I found another amp from someone who would ship, so that problem took care of itself.

Sweet! Post pics when you get it.
  • Author
3 hours ago, G650 said:

Am I correct in thinking Hawkins Texas is in the middle of nowhere?

North of Tyler, and way east of Dallas.  What were you looking at there?

Edited by dcbc

9 hours ago, dcbc said:

North of Tyler, and way east of Dallas.  What were you looking at there?

Hiwatt DR103 that the guy didn't want to ship. I scored another one though.

The amp stockpile is getting a little out of control, I think i need to think the heard a little. Gonna go ahead and move the JCM 900 I bought on a random bender I think. If anyone is interested I'd be happy to let it go to one of yall on the cheap

  • Author
On 2/17/2025 at 5:09 AM, G650 said:

Hiwatt DR103 that the guy didn't want to ship. I scored another one though.

Intriguing, but I need to keep what little hearing I have left.  Plus, I don't have time to play all the amps I currently have in my guitar-amp rescue.  I assume it's an old one?  My wife never would believe another one followed me home.

Edited by dcbc

1 minute ago, dcbc said:

Intriguing, but I need to keep what little hearing I have left.  Plus, I don't have time to play all the amps I currently have in my guitar-amp rescue.  I assume it's an old one?  My wife never would believe another one followed me home.

 

Yeah I think the one in Texas is a '73. The one I picked up is a '74 out of Liverpool, hand signed by Harry Joyce, all original except tubes.

The main reason I got it was I needed a amp that stayed cleaner louder, the Marshalls just aren't doing it. Even the clean channel on my JCM 900 dimed wasn't overly loud. The other option was a black or silver Twin, but I honestly felt the Hiwatt could be more versatile.

 

Of course I have another amp on the way besides this that I teased a few posts up in the thread, which was a total curveball that just popped up and and couldn't pass up. I have a problem apparently. I did buy a Catalinbread SFT since I've been on a huge Mick Taylor Stones kick to save me from buying an Ampeg V4 lol, so small victories on my compulsions.

  • Author
17 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

Yeah I think the one in Texas is a '73. The one I picked up is a '74 out of Liverpool, hand signed by Harry Joyce, all original except tubes.

The main reason I got it was I needed a amp that stayed cleaner louder, the Marshalls just aren't doing it. Even the clean channel on my JCM 900 dimed wasn't overly loud. The other option was a black or silver Twin, but I honestly felt the Hiwatt could be more versatile.

 

Of course I have another amp on the way besides this that I teased a few posts up in the thread, which was a total curveball that just popped up and and couldn't pass up. I have a problem apparently. I did buy a Catalinbread SFT since I've been on a huge Mick Taylor Stones kick to save me from buying an Ampeg V4 lol, so small victories on my compulsions.

I have a 57 Tweed Twin reissue (Low Power LOL) that stays clean (with just a bit of hair) far past comfortable at-home levels.  My old Bassman 100 would shake the windows before it would give anything up.

 

You're going to love the SFT.  That pedal through my Tweed Twin is instant Altamont Stones.  Just spectacular.  

 
Yeah I think the one in Texas is a '73. The one I picked up is a '74 out of Liverpool, hand signed by Harry Joyce, all original except tubes.
The main reason I got it was I needed a amp that stayed cleaner louder, the Marshalls just aren't doing it. Even the clean channel on my JCM 900 dimed wasn't overly loud. The other option was a black or silver Twin, but I honestly felt the Hiwatt could be more versatile.
 
Of course I have another amp on the way besides this that I teased a few posts up in the thread, which was a total curveball that just popped up and and couldn't pass up. I have a problem apparently. I did buy a Catalinbread SFT since I've been on a huge Mick Taylor Stones kick to save me from buying an Ampeg V4 lol, so small victories on my compulsions.

Is it really that a JCM 900 isn’t loud enough, or just that you’re going deaf?
  • Author
29 minutes ago, G650 said:

I have a problem apparently.

 

It's not a problem.  It's a rescue.

 

AP1-Gcz-Ncib-Lrvx7n-AJns3dd1a-BBc-EL1-KZ

plus

12-Finished-Amp-Front.jpg

 

/yes, I removed the Lil Dawg tag and replaced with a Harvard tag because I'm vain.  The rest of my boo-teek amps kept their tags because they're not ridiculous looking.  Despite it all, Jim puts together amazing amps.

Edited by dcbc

5 minutes ago, dcbc said:

I have a 57 Tweed Twin reissue (Low Power LOL) that stays clean (with just a bit of hair) far past comfortable at-home levels.  My old Bassman 100 would shake the windows before it would give anything up.

 

You're going to love the SFT.  That pedal through my Tweed Twin is instant Altamont Stones.  Just spectacular.  

 

Yeah I'm excited about it, I'm thinking into the Hiwatt will be fantastic. I've been playing the Mick slide stuff from All Down the Line live  '72.

 

I have a Suhr RL in the music room at home at the moment for noodling and demo work, these are all for recording, which is a 50 x 75 space with 25' ceiling. The only Fenders I have that will keep up are the Bassmans.

 

3 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:


Is it really that a JCM 900 isn’t loud enough, or just that you’re going deaf?

 

Ha, no it's a function of clean and loud. I've always felt a 100w Marshall half stack is basically the single most perfect amp for a rock band. I've measured them a bunch of times, and in the sweet spot on MV amps, around 7 or so on the master, and about 10 feet away, it's always right around 95 to 100db, just about a perfect match with a drummer.

  • Author
4 minutes ago, G650 said:

he only Fenders I have that will keep up are the Bassmans.

Presumably heads with a large cabinet?  I have the Victoria 4x10, and while it can get loud (I've played it un-mic'd in a 1,200 seat auditorium), it definitely has some hair on it past 4/12 on the dial.  The LPTT, while nominally the same wattage, is just a different animal, albeit a volume I just don't need these days, if ever. 

8 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Presumably heads with a large cabinet?  I have the Victoria 4x10, and while it can get loud (I've played it un-mic'd in a 1,200 seat auditorium), it definitely has some hair on it past 4/12 on the dial.  The LPTT, while nominally the same wattage, is just a different animal, albeit a volume I just don't need these days, if ever. 

Oh both. When I say keep up, both are pretty ripped up at that point if we are playing loud passages. Cleaner in the soft passages. I haven't channel switched an amp since probably 1998, so this is all guitar volume knob dependent. The '59 is probably on 6 normal/4 bright volume, the '66 I run around 6 or 7. The '66 is definitely for overdrive though, Social Distortion type songs. The tweed is used for a lot more varied stuff.

 

Live shows I've just used my Jubilees for 20 years.

Edited by G650

  • Author
9 minutes ago, G650 said:

Oh both. When I say keep up, both are pretty ripped up at that point if we are playing loud passages. Cleaner in the soft passages. I haven't channel switched an amp since probably 1998, so this is all guitar volume knob dependent. The '59 is probably on 6 normal/4 bright volume, the '66 I run around 6 or 7. The '66 is definitely for overdrive though, Social Distortion type songs. The tweed is used for a lot more varied stuff.

 

Live shows I've just used my Jubilees for 20 years.

No channel switching for me, although I'd like to put an A/B/C on the Harvard's 3 inputs for a little nice/nicer/nicest boost.  But I'm a volume knob rider as well.

1 minute ago, dcbc said:

But I'm a volume knob rider as well

Great Gatsby Movie GIF by Sony

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