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5 killed 18 injured in colorado springs gay nightclub shooting

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  • Popular Post
1 minute ago, Newdoc said:

Yeah that small fringe group that potrays absolutely no Christian values is your anecdotal evidence that the 22 year old shooter is a card carrying member of Focus on the Family.

Maybe the shooter is an absolute nutcake that should have had mental health treatment and no access to weapons. I would start with that angle instead of blindly lashing out.

Actually I would start with it’s a tragedy that could have been preventable and let’s mourn the senseless deaths and injuries while we gather evidence on why it happened.

It’s not small and it’s not fringe.

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  • Of course they have a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs. Those evangelical Focus on the Family closeted men have to go somewhere for their discreet gay sex 

  • If having one dad in the house can prevent mass shootings, imagine what could be accomplished with two dads in the house! 

  • I grew up a very conservative Christian and remained very conservative into my late 30's.  Then I finally started to listen to what Jesus said.  Love God.  Love others.  This sums up the totality of t

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57 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Yeah, how dare he vent his anger by lashing out at the group inarguably most responsible

Inarguably? Lol. They just barley named the shooter. So yeah, I think you can argue. Hyperbole Is an exhausting way to go through life.

Yep.  It ain't queer if it's tied next to the pier.  It also aint gay if it's underway.  Navy has both sides protected.

Austin band The FuckEmos had a song called 80 Gay Sailors with a nice chorus of “80 sailors went to sea and 40 couples came back.”
3 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I’m guessing they actually executed the recommended “rush them while changing mags” advice.  That’s a couple of dudes with huge stones. 

At least one witness account said club security caught the perp and" were beating the shit out of him"  detaining him until authorities arrived.

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/anderson-lee-aldrich-club-q-mass-shooting-suspect-colorado-springs/

Regardless of whether it was patrons or security, yeah, that is some bigtime courage to "attack the ambush."  All military jokes aside, it is a fundamental lesson in infantry tactics.

Edited by slorch

15 minutes ago, slorch said:

At least one witness account said club security caught the perp and" were beating the shit out of him"  detaining him until authorities arrived.

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/anderson-lee-aldrich-club-q-mass-shooting-suspect-colorado-springs/

Regardless of whether it was patrons or security, yeah, that is some bigtime courage to "attack the ambush."  All military jokes aside, it is a fundamental lesson in infantry tactics.

That is everything now.  The bad guys tactics have changed.  The response has to change.  It used to be taught don't fight back.  After Columbine, it was learned it's not a hostage situation anymore.  After 9/11 we've learned it's not a hijacking and demands.  Run, hide, fight is taught.  And yeah.  You go and you fucking kill these guys. 

 

As far as the religious angle.  Whatever angle.  It's be careful with the blame.  Pulse shooter was not the guy.  He was an Islamist.  Would you say the same thing?  Was this dude an Islamist?  I don't think so.  Was he some alt right crazy guy?  It seems to lean that way, but we don't know.  He isn't dead so we will find out.  What we do know is a night club got shot up and people died. 

  • Popular Post
28 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

Inarguably? Lol. They just barley named the shooter. So yeah, I think you can argue. Hyperbole Is an exhausting way to go through life.

How about this: fuck evangelicals all day, every day, regardless of reason. I don't mind most religions, but evangelicals can suck shit through a straw. That doesn't change if the shooter isn't religious.

Do tell though: who propagates anti-LTBTQ messaging to a wider audience in the United States?

4 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

What about Pampa?  Asking for a friend 

I know a dude there who will rub your bird for the right price.

Edited by Beau Vine

Angry incel type (just reading the tea leaves) whack job that was on the cops’ radar and should’ve been in a loony bin…or jail but manages to get ahold of firearms and kill a bunch of people…stop me if you’ve heard this one before. Depressing and frustrating. Reminds me of extremist guy on watch list manages to commit terrorist act type of shit. Sucks.

  • Popular Post
56 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

 

Actually I would start with it’s a tragedy that could have been preventable and let’s mourn the senseless deaths and injuries while we gather evidence on why it happened.

Get the fuck out of here with "could have been preventable". We as a nation have reacted to Sandy Hook, Parkland, Uvalde, Buffalo, El Paso, etc., with exactly dick all as a way to prevent further shootings. What the fuck do you think we can possibly learn about this to prevent more shootings?

59 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

it’s a tragedy that could have been preventable

No.  It couldn't have.  Not with the existing legal framework that we have.  In fact, it is NOT preventable by purposeful design.

Wanna take any guesses at WHY that's our existing legal framework?

8 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Get the fuck out of here with "could have been preventable". We as a nation have reacted to Sandy Hook, Parkland, Uvalde, Buffalo, El Paso, etc., with exactly dick all as a way to prevent further shootings. What the fuck do you think we can possibly learn about this to prevent more shootings?

not a single damn thing

pew pew motherfuckers!

 

 

VengefulQuestionableInexpectatumpleco-size_restricted.gif

Edited by mchookem

1 hour ago, Newdoc said:

Inarguably? Lol. They just barley named the shooter. So yeah, I think you can argue. Hyperbole Is an exhausting way to go through life.

I actually have no idea if he was a member of FOTF and wasn’t accusing him. It was a Colorado Springs joke since it’s arguably the evangelical capital of the US

4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I actually have no idea if he was a member of FOTF and wasn’t accusing him. It was a Colorado Springs joke since it’s arguably the evangelical capital of the US

really? I would totally guess Atlanta or some shit like that.  SEC! SEC! SEC!!!

USchristianity.jpg

Edited by slorch

  • Popular Post
How about this: fuck evangelicals all day, every day, regardless of reason. I don't mind most religions, but evangelicals can suck shit through a straw. That doesn't change if the shooter isn't religious.
Do tell though: who propagates anti-LTBTQ messaging to a wider audience in the United States?

Dude, can you go ahead and get a degree from Texas? You make me really uncomfortable with being totally onboard with your takes. No way in hell you put up with 4 years in the asshole of Texas.
3 hours ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Waiting on pins and needles over here to see which side gets the W here.

We are a sick, sick people.

Pseudo intellectual bothsides bullshit

Edited by cmontexas

  • Popular Post
1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

How about this: fuck evangelicals all day, every day, regardless of reason. I don't mind most religions, but evangelicals can suck shit through a straw. That doesn't change if the shooter isn't religious.

Do tell though: who propagates anti-LTBTQ messaging to a wider audience in the United States?

Evangelicals are no better the mullahs. Disgusting, hateful people all around.

  • Popular Post
2 hours ago, Newdoc said:

small fringe group that potrays absolutely no Christian values

How many examples do you need? 

Let's start with these.

“The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die,” Roger Jimenez, a Sacramento preacher, exhorted his congregants on June 12, the day of the assault. “The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job! Because these people are predators! They are abusers!”

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/us/pastors-praise-anti-gay-massacre-in-orlando-prompting-outrage.html

 

“Every single homosexual in our country should be charged with the crime, the abomination of homosexuality, that they have,” he continued. “They should be convicted in a lawful trial. They should be sentenced with death.”

“They should be lined up against the wall and shot in the back of the head! That’s what God teaches. That’s what the Bible says. You don’t like it? You don’t like God’s Word, because that is what God says.”

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/06/christian-pastor-calls-every-gay-person-lined-shot-back-head/

Lots of hits from this guy in Watauga, TX 

And here's Boise 

Pastor Joe Jones of the Shield of Faith Baptist Church said in the sermon, posted to YouTube about four weeks ago, that “sodomites are reptilians.” He also said, “It’s not God’s fault, he told nations how to deal with that. He told the nation that he ruled: Put them to death. Put all queers to death.” 

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho-press/boise-pastor-anti-lgbtq-comments-go-viral/277-3ebc0004-9e0e-4cbf-9a87-16f4eee52971

Maybe I can go get some OG Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. 

Face it. They are on the wrong side of history. They are hateful, mean, and stand in the pulpit to incite violence. Love thy neighbor? Fuck that. Line them up against the wall.

 

 

 

 

Edited by cactusflinthead

1 hour ago, slorch said:

really? I would totally guess Atlanta or some shit like that.  SEC! SEC! SEC!!!

USchristianity.jpg

Wow  never realized my favorite parts of the country are generally catholic

 

New England 

NYC

New Orleans

Miami

Chicago

most of Cali 

13 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

How many examples do you need? 

Let's start with these.

“The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die,” Roger Jimenez, a Sacramento preacher, 

exhorted his congregants on June 12, the day of the assault. “The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job! Because these people are predators! They are abusers!”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/us/pastors-praise-anti-gay-massacre-in-orlando-prompting-outrage.html

 

“Every single homosexual in our country should be charged with the crime, the abomination of homosexuality, that they have,” he continued. “They should be convicted in a lawful trial. They should be sentenced with death.”

“They should be lined up against the wall and shot in the back of the head! That’s what God teaches. That’s what the Bible says. You don’t like it? You don’t like God’s Word, because that is what God says.”

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/06/christian-pastor-calls-every-gay-person-lined-shot-back-head/

Lots of hits from this guy in Watauga, TX 

And here's Boise 

Pastor Joe Jones of the Shield of Faith Baptist Church said in the sermon, posted to YouTube about four weeks ago, that “sodomites are reptilians.” He also said, “It’s not God’s fault, he told nations how to deal with that. He told the nation that he ruled: Put them to death. Put all queers to death.” 

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho-press/boise-pastor-anti-lgbtq-comments-go-viral/277-3ebc0004-9e0e-4cbf-9a87-16f4eee52971

Maybe I can go get some OG Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. 

Face it. They are on the wrong side of history. They are hateful, mean, and stand in the pulpit to incite violence. Love thy neighbor? Fuck that. Line them up against the wall.

 

 

 

 

More fringe and not representative of mainline large organizations like Focus on the Family. Fallwell backed off his rhetoric 20 years ago. And while Pat Robertson is a stain on evangelical Christianity, he is not representative of the whole.

The logic of applying fringe guilt to a whole group with a same label is what the far right used to codemn all Muslisms for terrorism. Not a good strategy. Kudos for your research.
 

So if you’re going to throw a large organization in with the hateful rhetoric of these churches and TV huckster, then you need to provide examples of their rhetoric that supports hate and violence.

2 hours ago, Newdoc said:

Yeah that small fringe group that potrays absolutely no Christian values is your anecdotal evidence that the 22 year old shooter is a card carrying member of Focus on the Family.

Maybe the shooter is an absolute nutcake that should have had mental health treatment and no access to weapons. I would start with that angle instead of blindly lashing out.

Actually I would start with it’s a tragedy that could have been preventable and let’s mourn the senseless deaths and injuries while we gather evidence on why it happened.

Lol. Fringe group. Riiiiight. Is this your pastor?

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/texas-pastor-says-gay-people-shot-back-head-shocking-sermon-rcna32748

Texas pastor says gay people should be 'shot in the back of the head' in shocking sermon

Pastor Dillon Awes of Stedfast Baptist Church in Watauga said gay people "are dangerous to society” and “all homosexuals are pedophiles.”

June 9, 2022, 1:45 PM EDT
By Minyvonne Burke

A Texas baptist church — labeled an "anti-LGBT hate group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center — has caused outrage after a pastor said gay people should be "lined up against the wall and shot in the back of the head."

Pastor Dillon Awes of Stedfast Baptist Church in Watauga, a suburb of Fort Worth, made the comment and other controversial remarks during a Sunday morning sermon titled "Why We Won’t Shut Up."

"I’m angry this morning because our entire country is celebrating the worse sin in the Bible," Awes said during the sermon referring to Pride Month, which commemorates the LGBTQ+ community every June.

"You know a lot of pastors have this stupid idea where it’s just like, 'oh you know God loves everyone. And God hates the sin but loves the sinner.' But people have taken this to such an extreme where they’re saying celebrate the sin, not just tolerate it, celebrate it," he continued. "Let me show what the Bible says about these people."

Awes read several passages from the Bible and condemned homosexuality as a sin. At one point, he told the congregation that gay people "are dangerous to society" and said that "all homosexuals are pedophiles."

"I’m not saying that every single homosexual that’s alive right now has committed that act with a child already because it could be they haven’t had the opportunity yet and they will at some point later in their life," he said. "This is why we need to put these people to death through the proper channels of the government. ... These people are not normal. They’re not your average everyday sinners. ... They have no hope of salvation."

At certain times during the sermon people from the crowd could be heard cheering in agreement. Awes told the room that he thinks the "solution for the homosexual in 2022" is the death penalty.

  • Popular Post
7 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

More fringe and not representative of mainline large organizations like Focus on the Family. Fallwell backed off his rhetoric 20 years ago. And while Pat Robertson is a stain on evangelical Christianity, he is not representative of the whole.

The logic of applying fringe guilt to a whole group with a same label is what the far right used to codemn all Muslisms for terrorism. Not a good strategy. Kudos for your research.
 

So if you’re going to throw a large organization in with the hateful rhetoric of these churches and TV huckster, then you need to provide examples of their rhetoric that supports hate and violence.

Nah I think we'll just keep shitting on evangelicals because you people are fucking freaks and deserve to burn in the hell you dreamed up in your heads. You should probably just stop posting and go DM Poe it Up so you guys can argue about who hates gays more.

Also, you're a lying sack of shit. And you're not a victim you cocksucking pussy, the dead people are the victims. Shut the fuck up.

Edited by Brian Fantana

3 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

More fringe and not representative of mainline large organizations like Focus on the Family. Fallwell backed off his rhetoric 20 years ago. And while Pat Robertson is a stain on evangelical Christianity, he is not representative of the whole.

The logic of applying fringe guilt to a whole group with a same label is what the far right used to codemn all Muslisms for terrorism. Not a good strategy. Kudos for your research.
 

So if you’re going to throw a large organization in with the hateful rhetoric of these churches and TV huckster, then you need to provide examples of their rhetoric that supports hate and violence.

Franklin Graham mainstream enough for you? 

Jeffress at least got smart enough to realize that he has enough parishioners that are queer he better back off.

It was always about the money anyway. No benes if you ain't married.

“It comes down to money, Todd, that’s what it’s about,” Jeffress told Todd Starnes on Fox News Radio. “And when states are being faced with the loss of business, they tend to fold real quickly. And I’ve said often that the greatest threat to freedom of religion in America is not ISIS, it’s the Chamber of Commerce. I mean, it’s the businesses that say to our representatives, ‘Oh, don’t pass laws like that, don’t pass these religious freedom laws because people will interpret that as anti-gay and we’ll lose business.’”

After the Supreme Court last summer ruled same-sex marriage legal, Jeffress said he believed “our culture will get increasingly darker,” adding that the decision was “ultimately irrelevant.”

“The Judge of all of the universe has already issued His decision: marriage should be reserved for one man and one woman. And there is no appealing that verdict,” he responded.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/trump-robert-jeffress-tweet-lgbt-224496

But wait there's more!

As if I have never been in a Baptist church...

 

Robert Jeffress, a Dallas pastor and Fox News contributor, has been described as one of Trump’s closest evangelical advisers and is part of the “Evangelicals for Trump” coalition — created to mobilize evangelical voters in the 2020 election.

Jeffress is also a vocal opponent of LGBTQ rights, having previously called gay people “filthy” and linked homosexuality with bestiality.

 

He also said that LGBTQ people have a “miserable lifestyle,” called homosexuality “perverse,” said same-sex marriage was “a sign of the coming apocalypse,” and described transgender people as “a rebellion against God’s plan.”

https://www.metroweekly.com/2020/01/trump-adviser-said-lesbian-teen-seriously-considering-suicide-should-undergo-conversion-therapy/

As I’ve always said, we need more jails. There’s too many pieces of shit walking the streets. 

43 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

More fringe and not representative of mainline large organizations like Focus on the Family. Fallwell backed off his rhetoric 20 years ago. And while Pat Robertson is a stain on evangelical Christianity, he is not representative of the whole.

The logic of applying fringe guilt to a whole group with a same label is what the far right used to codemn all Muslisms for terrorism. Not a good strategy. Kudos for your research.
 

So if you’re going to throw a large organization in with the hateful rhetoric of these churches and TV huckster, then you need to provide examples of their rhetoric that supports hate and violence.

This is not a fringe movement, you fucking turd.  The entire Methodist church is literally splitting in half over LGBTQ rights.

3 hours ago, Newdoc said:

that could have been preventable

Yeah, it's preventable if a certain large, generally rural (but certainly not limited to; see also, Dallas, TX; Orange County, CA; etc) minority of the population didn't have it in their meth-addled minds that LGBTQ+ people had to be dealt with for the safety of their souls and "for the children."

  • Popular Post
7 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

As I’ve always said, we need more jails. There’s too many pieces of shit walking the streets. 

Or you could just replace all of the poor minorities who have been unjustly imprisoned in the name of “The War on Drugs” with the real criminals. 

An American saying “we need more jails” is like a Kiwi saying “we need more sheep.”

Edited by Planet Houston

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

How many examples do you need? 

Let's start with these.

“The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die,” Roger Jimenez, a Sacramento preacher, 

exhorted his congregants on June 12, the day of the assault. “The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job! Because these people are predators! They are abusers!”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/us/pastors-praise-anti-gay-massacre-in-orlando-prompting-outrage.html

 

“Every single homosexual in our country should be charged with the crime, the abomination of homosexuality, that they have,” he continued. “They should be convicted in a lawful trial. They should be sentenced with death.”

“They should be lined up against the wall and shot in the back of the head! That’s what God teaches. That’s what the Bible says. You don’t like it? You don’t like God’s Word, because that is what God says.”

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/06/christian-pastor-calls-every-gay-person-lined-shot-back-head/

Lots of hits from this guy in Watauga, TX 

And here's Boise 

Pastor Joe Jones of the Shield of Faith Baptist Church said in the sermon, posted to YouTube about four weeks ago, that “sodomites are reptilians.” He also said, “It’s not God’s fault, he told nations how to deal with that. He told the nation that he ruled: Put them to death. Put all queers to death.” 

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho-press/boise-pastor-anti-lgbtq-comments-go-viral/277-3ebc0004-9e0e-4cbf-9a87-16f4eee52971

Maybe I can go get some OG Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. 

Face it. They are on the wrong side of history. They are hateful, mean, and stand in the pulpit to incite violence. Love thy neighbor? Fuck that. Line them up against the wall.

 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile, I'm part of this wee little Christian fringe group:

https://www.ucc.org/what-we-do/justice-local-church-ministries/justice/health-and-wholeness-advocacy-ministries/lgbt/lgbt_ona/

 

  • Popular Post
16 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

As I’ve always said, we need more jails. There’s too many pieces of shit walking the streets. 

This is fucking stupid 

12 minutes ago, Planet Houston said:

Or you could just replace all of the poor minorities who have been unjustly imprisoned in the name of “The War on Drugs” with the real criminals. 

An American saying “we need more jails” is like a Kiwi saying “we need more sheep.”

Pot, sure. Anything else, um no thank you.

@Newdoc might explain Christ’s take on homosexuality, because I am drawing a blank. As for the old testament, Lewis Black has something to say:

 

47 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

As I’ve always said, we need more jails. There’s too many pieces of shit walking the streets. 

As of July 2021, the United Stateshad the highest number of incarcerated individuals worldwide, with almost 2.1 million people in prison. 
 

You seem, uh, …

31 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

This is fucking stupid 

… yep, there it is.

5 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

As of July 2021, the United Stateshad the highest number of incarcerated individuals worldwide, with almost 2.1 million people in prison. 
 

You seem, uh, …

… yep, there it is.

Not enough, apparently. 

  • Popular Post
1 minute ago, Poe It Up said:

Not enough, apparently. 

Mass shootings declined for several years, sans lockdown, and more prisons weren’t the reason. Can’t elaborate, because this is the “free speech, kinda” forum.

2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Evangelicals are no better the mullahs.

They really do have a lot in common.

1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

Yeah, it's preventable if a certain large, generally rural (but certainly not limited to; see also, Dallas, TX; Orange County, CA; etc) minority of the population didn't have it in their meth-addled minds that LGBTQ+ people had to be dealt with for the safety of their souls and "for the children."

I will lodge a formal objection to the inclusion of Dallas, TX.

That's like saying The Woodlands is Houston.

We're talking about places that not only are not in the City of Dallas, they're not even in Dallas County.:::

Notwithstanding Jeffress

2020-election-map--677x451.jpg

Edited by TwiceHorn

22 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I will lodge a formal objection to the inclusion of Dallas, TX.

That's like saying The Woodlands is Houston.

We're talking about places that not only are not in the City of Dallas, they're not even in Dallas County.:::

Notwithstanding Jeffress

2020-election-map--677x451.jpg

Now let's do Frisco, Colleyville, and Southlake. Let's overlay the voting districts too and see how many slices we can get south of downtown. 

 

Cookeville? Wth autocorrect 

Edited by cactusflinthead

6 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Sounds like it was a badass member of the LGBTQ community who saved a lot of lives 🌈 👊 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/20/us/colorado-springs-shooting-gunman-tackled.html?smid=url-share

Maybe the NRA’s slogan should be updated to say, “The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun or two fabulous guys without a gun.”

Of course, that still leaves out a rabbi with a chair.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/17/1073637162/colleyville-texas-synagogue-rabbi-threw-chair-before-escape

  • Popular Post

Maybe if Uvalde had called in a few drag queens some of those kids might still be alive. 
 

Too soon?  
Not soon enough. 

Edited by Bateshorn

4 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Maybe if Uvalde had called in a few drag queens some of those kids might still be alive. 
 

Too soon?  
Not soon enough. 

Maybe there should be several drag queens permanently on staff at the schools for security purposes. When they’re not busy taking out bad guys they could read stories to the kids. 

At the very least, a seven part lecture series on how to be a fucking man to the Uvalde police department.

14 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Dude, CS is almost 500,000 in population by itself and 755,000 for the Metro area.

Hell, Amarillo has a gay club and it's at 200k/300k for comparison.  

At one point, Amarillo had more gay bars than Austin

  • Popular Post
8 hours ago, Newdoc said:

Yeah that small fringe group that potrays absolutely no Christian values is your anecdotal evidence that the 22 year old shooter is a card carrying member of Focus on the Family.

Maybe the shooter is an absolute nutcake that should have had mental health treatment and no access to weapons. I would start with that angle instead of blindly lashing out.

Actually I would start with it’s a tragedy that could have been preventable and let’s mourn the senseless deaths and injuries while we gather evidence on why it happened.

I’m sorry, but not this wasn’t preventable.

When more than 50% United States decided that allowing a nutcase to play Duck Hunt on elementary kids in Connecticut was okay by not doing a damn thing with gun reform, then your ability to say how this was preventable went out the fucking window. 

Fuck outta here with your bullshit.

12 hours ago, Helobious said:

That’s gotta fucking suck mentally to hate gay people that much and then have your terrorist attack ended because gay guys physically overpowered you.

Deep down it’s what they want

15 hours ago, slorch said:

really? I would totally guess Atlanta or some shit like that.  SEC! SEC! SEC!!!

USchristianity.jpg

They used to call Colorado Springs the Evangelical Vatican or the Christian Mecca 

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