February 5, 20241 yr 1) Caleb Williams2) Drake Maye3) Jayden Daniels4) Marvin Harrison Jr5) Maik Nabers6) Rome Odunze7) Joe Alt'8) Terrion Arnold9) Olumuyiwa Fashanu10) Taliese Fuaga11) Dallas Turner12) Bo Nix13) JJ McCarthy14) Brock Bowers15) Jared Verse16) Byron Murphy II17) Ennis Rakestraw Jr18) Brian Thomas Jr19) Tyler Guyton20) Amarius Mims21) Jer'Zhan Newton22) Quinyon Mitchell23) Kool-Aid McKinstry24) Keon Coleman25) Cooper DeJean26) Troy Fautanu27) JC Latham28) Jackson Powers-Johnson29) Laiatu Latu30) Darius Robinson31) Jordan Morgan32) Xavier Worthy33) Ladd McConkey34) Patrick Paul35) Nate Wiggins36) Chris Braswell37) Edgerrin Cooper38) Adonai Mitchell39) Graham Barton40) Chop Robinson41) Kamari Lassiter42) Michael Penix Jr43) Devontez Walker44) Troy Franklin45) Xavier Legette46) Malachi Corley47) Kris Jenkins48) Roman Wilson49) Ja'Tavion Sanders50) Tyler Nubin51) Zach Frazier52) Bralen Trice53) Junior Colson54) T'Vondre Sweat55) Cooper Beebe56) Kingsley Suamataia57) Kamren Kinchens58) Jonathan Brooks59) Leonard Taylor III60) Ja'Lynn Polk61) TJ Tampa62) Javon Bullard63) Adisa Isaac64) Michael Hall Jr
February 5, 20241 yr https://www.nfl.com/news/eric-edholm-2024-nfl-mock-draft-1-0-chargers-grab-te-brock-bowers-at-no-5-qb-j-j-mccarthy-to-rams
February 6, 20241 yr Author 8 hours ago, Fud said: Sure hope Byron goes to better organization This would be great for JT I just don't get the love for JJ... 1st Rd Bust
February 6, 20241 yr McCarthy was highly rated as a recruit, beat out the established starter as a true freshman, beat Ohio State 3 times and won the National Championship, going 15-0 in the process. I dont see anything physically that Brock Purdy can do that JJ McCarthy couldn't do. He's 3 years younger than Nix or Penix. He is definitely worth a draft pick for a team needing a QB
February 6, 20241 yr the nfl is a qb league, you have to keep trying until you land the right one hits
February 6, 20241 yr 6 hours ago, cmontexas said: McCarthy was highly rated as a recruit, beat out the established starter as a true freshman, beat Ohio State 3 times and won the National Championship, going 15-0 in the process. I dont see anything physically that Brock Purdy can do that JJ McCarthy couldn't do. He's 3 years younger than Nix or Penix. He is definitely worth a draft pick for a team needing a QB He also only had to make a couple of passes a game for his team to win. He’s a more toolsy Mark Sanchez at this point
February 6, 20241 yr 7 hours ago, cmontexas said: McCarthy was highly rated as a recruit, beat out the established starter as a true freshman, beat Ohio State 3 times and won the National Championship, going 15-0 in the process. I dont see anything physically that Brock Purdy can do that JJ McCarthy couldn't do. He's 3 years younger than Nix or Penix. He is definitely worth a draft pick for a team needing a QB Brock Purdy in college > JJ McCarthy in college JJ just played on a team that for it's level of play.
February 6, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said: Brock Purdy in college > JJ McCarthy in college JJ just played on a team that for it's level of play. I don't think this is clear cut, and their situations were so different that it's difficult to compare. JJ did his job, which was to not throw interceptions, to use his legs on a couple of key third downs a game, and to make ~2 NFL throws per game. His QBR was much higher than Purdy's, but again, they had different jobs.
February 6, 20241 yr 4 minutes ago, Fud said: I don't think this is clear cut, and their situations were so different that it's difficult to compare. JJ did his job, which was to not throw interceptions, to use his legs on a couple of key third downs a game, and to make ~2 NFL throws per game. His QBR was much higher than Purdy's, but again, they had different jobs. Seems pretty clear cut to me that Brock was a superior QB on a much lesser talented team than Michigan.
February 6, 20241 yr 5 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said: Seems pretty clear cut to me that Brock was a superior QB on a much lesser talented team than Michigan. Based on what? Cumulative counting stats that included a lot more interceptions? McCarthy's metrics were better, and he had these: https://www.espn.com/college-football/game/_/gameId/401551786/alabama-michigan https://www.espn.com/college-football/team/_/id/194/ohio-state-buckeyes
February 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, Fud said: Based on what? Cumulative counting stats that included a lot more interceptions? McCarthy's metrics were better, and he had these: https://www.espn.com/college-football/game/_/gameId/401551786/alabama-michigan https://www.espn.com/college-football/team/_/id/194/ohio-state-buckeyes McCarthy had a 3 game stretch where he didn't get a TD at all. And his one TD against Ohio St should have been ruled an interception. He was carried by his team this year. He's not a great QB. Also you have his pre vs post Stallions stats which paint a pretty interesting picture. Brock made Iowa State far better team than they are without him. JJ McCarthy had no bearing on his team this year. Edited February 6, 20241 yr by BurntOrange&White
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, BurntOrange&White said: McCarthy had a 3 game stretch where he didn't get a TD at all. He was carried by his team this year. He's not a great QB. He was #3 in the nation in QBR, and had big NFL level throws in big games that were critical in those victories
February 6, 20241 yr 2 minutes ago, Fud said: He was #3 in the nation in QBR, and had big NFL level throws in big games that were critical in those victories QBR, a made up stat by ESPN to justify Tebow. Great QB's don't go 3 games without a single TD. He didn't do anything to win Michigan games this year. Edited February 6, 20241 yr by BurntOrange&White
February 6, 20241 yr 6 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said: QBR, a made up stat by ESPN to justify Tebow. Are you under the impression that Tebow wasn't a good QB in college?
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, Fud said: Are you under the impression that Tebow wasn't a good QB in college? Tebow was a great college QB but you're using QBR as a end all be all of stats for JJ. JJ is an above average game manager for Michigan.
February 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said: Tebow was a great college QB but you're using QBR as a end all be all of stats for JJ. JJ is an above average game manager for Michigan. It's more useful than counting stats
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, Fud said: It's more useful than counting stats Yeah so useful it gives results like this consistently.
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, BurntOrange&White said: Yeah so useful it gives results like this consistently. Exactly. It's an EPA based metric that takes game context into account.
February 6, 20241 yr 26 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said: Seems pretty clear cut to me that Brock was a superior QB on a much lesser talented team than Michigan. JJ has a better Y/A, Rating, and rushing average. Your stats say the opposite. Purdy has the volume stats. JJ has all the stats that are independent of volume. Edited February 6, 20241 yr by Juicy
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, Fud said: Exactly. It's an EPA based metric that takes game context into account. Minnesota won the game....it's a retarded metric all around.
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, BurntOrange&White said: Minnesota won the game....it's a retarded metric all around. So we should be looking at W/L to rank QBs?
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, Fud said: So we should be looking at W/L to rank QBs? We shouldn't be using QBR a stat that was made up by ESPN to justify QBs. Especially considering that it's so flawed.
February 6, 20241 yr It's an EPA based metric. When numbers don't match what you'd expect from looking at a box score, it likely means someone did better or worse on 3rd downs than you'd expect from the box score. How you perform on third downs matters in football.
February 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said: We shouldn't be using QBR a stat that was made up by ESPN to justify QBs. Especially considering that it's so flawed. Yards per attempt seems to be the best stat currently for QBs, Unless you want just straight video game numbers of TDs for QBs that throw 40+ passes a game. JJ was a full yard per attempt higher than Purdy for his career and almost 2 yards per attempt higher than Purdy in each of their last two systems. Air Raid QBs are going to have higher stats than pro style QBs. If you throw 20 passes for 200 yards IMO that is better than throwing 40 passes for 20 yards. In the 3 game stretch that JJ didn't throw a TD. How many games of those did Michigan lose? Why throw the ball if you don't have to. 4 things can happen when you throw, a completion, an incompletion, a sack and an interception. If you can run the ball, you don't need to throw.
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, Juicy said: Yards per attempt seems to be the best stat currently for QBs, Unless you want just straight video game numbers of TDs for QBs that throw 40+ passes a game. JJ was a full yard per attempt higher than Purdy for his career and almost 2 yards per attempt higher than Purdy in each of their last two systems. Air Raid QBs are going to have higher stats than pro style QBs. If you throw 20 passes for 200 yards IMO that is better than throwing 40 passes for 20 yards. In the 3 game stretch that JJ didn't throw a TD. How many games of those did Michigan lose? Why throw the ball if you don't have to. 4 things can happen when you throw, a completion, an incompletion, a sack and an interception. If you can run the ball, you don't need to throw. I want QB's who don't go 3 games without scoring a single TD.
February 6, 20241 yr 2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said: I want QB's who don't go 3 games without scoring a single TD. Why? Did Michigan lose any of those games? Isn't winning the ultimate goal in football? QB 1 9/21, 123 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT QB 226/49 273 yards, 1TD, 1 INT. One of those QBs won the Super Bowl. 8 times the team that won the super bowl, won without their QB throwing a TD. If you don't need to, you don't You don't think Pete Carrol wishes he would have rushed beast mode instead of throwing a pick to Malcom Butler in the super bowl?
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, Juicy said: Why? Did Michigan lose any of those games? Isn't winning the ultimate goal in football? QB 1 9/21, 123 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT QB 226/49 273 yards, 1TD, 1 INT. One of those QBs won the Super Bowl. 8 times the team that won the super bowl, won without their QB throwing a TD. If you don't need to, you don't You don't think Pete Carrol wishes he would have rushed beast mode instead of throwing a pick to Malcom Butler in the super bowl? That's the point....Michigan didn't lose and didn't need him to win. Don't tell me he's such a great QB when that's not reality. Edited February 6, 20241 yr by BurntOrange&White
February 6, 20241 yr 5 minutes ago, Juicy said: Yards per attempt seems to be the best stat currently for QBs, Unless you want just straight video game numbers of TDs for QBs that throw 40+ passes a game. JJ was a full yard per attempt higher than Purdy for his career and almost 2 yards per attempt higher than Purdy in each of their last two systems. Air Raid QBs are going to have higher stats than pro style QBs. If you throw 20 passes for 200 yards IMO that is better than throwing 40 passes for 20 yards. In the 3 game stretch that JJ didn't throw a TD. How many games of those did Michigan lose? Why throw the ball if you don't have to. 4 things can happen when you throw, a completion, an incompletion, a sack and an interception. If you can run the ball, you don't need to throw. There isn't a perfect metric or stat for QB play. Most QB stats and metrics are influenced by the offense and surroundings as a whole, and grades that seek to isolate the QB like PFF rely on someone trying to understand the QB's full job, including pre-snap checks and understanding the progressions he's coached to do, and no one is probably truly qualified to do that outside of the football team EPA based metrics (QBR), or ones similar (DVOA) are probably your best bet, while also having PFF handy as a cross check I think Purdy and McCarthy's situations were so different that it's difficult to compare, although I'm fairly certain that traditional box score scouting isn't the best way
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, Fud said: There isn't a perfect metric or stat for QB play. Most QB stats and metrics are influenced by the offense and surroundings as a whole, and grades that seek to isolate the QB like PFF rely on someone trying to understand the QB's full job, including pre-snap checks and understanding the progressions he's coached to do, and no one is probably truly qualified to do that outside of the football team EPA based metrics (QBR), or ones similar (DVOA) are probably your best bet, while also having PFF handy as a cross check I think Purdy and McCarthy's situations were so different that it's difficult to compare, although I'm fairly certain that traditional box score scouting isn't the best way Iowa State had it's most success because of Purdy's play. Michigan had their success regardless of McCarthy's play.
February 6, 20241 yr 2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said: That's the point....Michigan didn't lose and didn't need him to win. Don't tell me he's such a great QB when that's not reality. They aren't tied together though. He can be a good QB, and Michigan can also win without him. Both of those can be true. They aren't mutually exclusive.
February 6, 20241 yr Of the 8 Super Bowls won by teams with QBs who didn't throw a TD. Namath, Aikman, Elway, Manning, Brady. Those are all hall of fame QBs. One might even say they were great. Their teams didn't need them to win a super bowl. That doesn't mean they are not great. That is your argument, Michigan won without needing him, so he must suck. Namath, Aikman, Elway, Manning, Brady all had teams that won without needing them, so they must suck. Their teams didn't lose, and didn't need them to win. Don't tell me 5 hall of fame QBs aren't great when that's not reality. Edited February 6, 20241 yr by Juicy
February 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said: Iowa State had it's most success because of Purdy's play. Michigan had their success regardless of McCarthy's play. Iowa State's success was in large part due to a DC who revolutionized anti-spread defenses in college, and stumped most of the big twelve offensive brain trusts for a few years
February 6, 20241 yr 5 minutes ago, Fud said: Iowa State's success was in large part due to a DC who revolutionized anti-spread defenses in college, and stumped most of the big twelve offensive brain trusts for a few years Iowa State also opened up 2021 with Brock Purdy not throwing a TD in the first two games. One of which they lost. He must suck. Thank god for that UNLV slump buster or he may have went 3 games without a TD. The horror. Edited February 6, 20241 yr by Juicy
February 6, 20241 yr 9 hours ago, cmontexas said: McCarthy was highly rated as a recruit, beat out the established starter as a true freshman, beat Ohio State 3 times and won the National Championship, going 15-0 in the process. I dont see anything physically that Brock Purdy can do that JJ McCarthy couldn't do. He's 3 years younger than Nix or Penix. He is definitely worth a draft pick for a team needing a QB Giving a QB credit for a team's W/L record is pretty specious. It's not dissimilar to W/L records in baseball for pitchers. Bob Welch won 27 games in 1990 and won the Cy Young. Was Bob Welch a great pitcher or was he playing on an amazing American League team? 25 minutes ago, Fud said: There isn't a perfect metric or stat for QB play. Most QB stats and metrics are influenced by the offense and surroundings as a whole, and grades that seek to isolate the QB like PFF rely on someone trying to understand the QB's full job, including pre-snap checks and understanding the progressions he's coached to do, and no one is probably truly qualified to do that outside of the football team EPA based metrics (QBR), or ones similar (DVOA) are probably your best bet, while also having PFF handy as a cross check I think Purdy and McCarthy's situations were so different that it's difficult to compare, although I'm fairly certain that traditional box score scouting isn't the best way You get trapped in the numbers sometimes. It's the same shit other guys do on here, even when a dearth of stats is a glaring issue. No one needs QBR to know who the fuck JJ McCarthy is as a QB. That dude is somewhere between Jay Barker and Tee Martin on the spectrum of national title winning QBs capable of playing in the NFL. His draft ranking is idiotic and he's being halo-effected into that range by his coach's aura and the team/talent that carried both of them. If that sounds crazy, then you and anyone else not named Juicy the Blind Michigan Homer have forgotten that humans input the data and the way the data is manipulated, and humans, no matter how autistic or sociopathic, are emotional animals that use logic as paint to cover up the emotion driving their decisions and behaviors.
February 6, 20241 yr Just now, closetojumping said: You get trapped in the numbers sometimes. It's the same shit other guys do on here, even when a dearth of stats is a glaring issue. No one needs QBR to know who the fuck JJ McCarthy is as a QB. That dude is somewhere between Jay Barker and Tee Martin on the spectrum of national title winning QBs capable of playing in the NFL. His draft ranking is idiotic and he's being halo-effected into that range by his coach's aura and the team/talent that carried both of them. If that sounds crazy, then you and anyone else not named Juicy the Blind Michigan Homer have forgotten that humans input the data and the way the data is manipulated, and humans, no matter how autistic or sociopathic, are emotional animals that use logic as paint to cover up the emotion driving their decisions and behaviors. I wouldn't draft McCarthy in the first, where he'll likely go. He's Mark Sanchez but fast and with an arm. My point was that it's not clear cut who was the better college QB between the two. I wouldn't state that one was better than the other as fact. Purdy put up counting stats as a four year starter. McCarthy didn't as a two year starter who only played a handful of games where he actually was tested and had to throw the ball a lot, but he did come through a few times in big moments in big games with NFL level throws and with his legs. Overall the metrics have McCarthy as the better college player, but he got to play on easy mode most of the time
February 6, 20241 yr For Christ’s sake, NFL teams don’t give a shit about their college stats. Sure they care about on-field performance in general, but they’re primarily looking for ability, physical attributes, etc. And all metrics are “made up.” They’re all imperfect. Football is a complex sport with lots of players on the field and lots of variables; you can’t account for all of that statistically. That doesn’t mean that imperfect metrics tell you nothing, it just means they don’t tell you everything - they’re not either perfect or useless. (And if TD passes thrown in college had any correlation to NFL success, then all the Leach QBs like Symons and Cumbie and Harrell would have been stars.)
February 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, Hank Chinaski said: NFL teams don’t give a shit about their college stats. Nobody is arguing against this
February 6, 20241 yr 4 minutes ago, Fud said: Nobody is arguing against this I guess not explicitly, but there’s an entire page about different QB stats and how JJ McCarthy rates in a presumed effort to figure out how high he should be drafted.
February 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, Hank Chinaski said: I guess not explicitly, but there’s an entire page about different QB stats and how JJ McCarthy rates in a presumed effort to figure out how high he should be drafted. The argument is about who was the better college QB
February 6, 20241 yr You can argue JJ was better in college, but not by much especially when you consider the level of talent both guys were playing with.
February 6, 20241 yr Kirk Cousins gentlemen. We are comparing him to Kirk Cousins. I think that is pretty much all we need to see here.
February 6, 20241 yr 11 minutes ago, Fud said: The argument is about who was the better college QB Ok. Perhaps I made assumptions based on the fact that this is the NFL draft thread.
February 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, Hank Chinaski said: Ok. Perhaps I made assumptions based on the fact that this is the NFL draft thread. I saw a wrong in a post and had to correct it, sorry for the detour
February 6, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, Juicy said: AIR Yards per attempt seems to be the best stat currently for QBs, Unless you want just straight video game numbers of TDs for QBs that throw 40+ passes a game. JJ was a full yard per attempt higher than Purdy for his career and almost 2 yards per attempt higher than Purdy in each of their last two systems. Air Raid QBs are going to have higher stats than pro style QBs. If you throw 20 passes for 200 yards IMO that is better than throwing 40 passes for 20 yards. In the 3 game stretch that JJ didn't throw a TD. How many games of those did Michigan lose? Why throw the ball if you don't have to. 4 things can happen when you throw, a completion, an incompletion, a sack and an interception. If you can run the ball, you don't need to throw. air yards per attempt would be a better stat 2023 Drake Maye 8.7 JJ Mc 9.8 C Williams 10.3 J Daniels 13.6 2021 Purdy 7.9 JJ can make a good system QB, the problem is the NFL teams not requiring high level QB play are few and far between. If he goes to a team like the Panthers, he is a bigger bust than Young Edited February 6, 20241 yr by ChickenSandwich
February 6, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, Fud said: I saw a wrong in a post and had to correct it, sorry for the detour You let a known idiot drag you into his sty for a mud wrestling match.
February 6, 20241 yr I watched every Michigan game last year. If you think Michigan goes undefeated without McCarthy you’re stupid as fuck.
February 6, 20241 yr 9 minutes ago, Helobious said: I watched every Michigan game last year. If you think Michigan goes undefeated without McCarthy you’re stupid as fuck. And there we have it....my point is proven.
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