June 25, 20241 yr In-depth article but pretty interesting. They sold me on the re-watch of the Hawks game with 10 turnovers. https://sports.yahoo.com/a-closer-look-at-michael-jordans-1988-dpoy-award-raises-questions-about-its-validity-has-lebron-james-been-chasing-a-ghost-140452567.html
June 25, 20241 yr Well that's it. Greatest defensive guard ever. Dude was able to get steals even when the other team didn't turn it over.
June 25, 20241 yr Popular Post If Karl Malone wakes up tomorrow and walks to the nearest 24 Hour Fitness and makes a layup in street clothes, they're giving the assist to John Stockton.
June 25, 20241 yr And Tim Duncan couldn’t get two more goddamn blocks in the 2003 Finals from the fucking home statistician in Game 6.
June 25, 20241 yr 3 hours ago, aggie08 said: If Karl Malone wakes up tomorrow and walks to the nearest 24 Hour Fitness and makes a layup in street clothes, they're giving the assist to John Stockton. Exactly. They need to dig into Stockton's numbers next. I would LOVE to see a home/away split on those assist numbers 2 hours ago, Pam Cummings said: Yeah and I'm starting to question Wilt's 55 rebounds in one game. I saw someone mention his and Russell's rebound numbers too.
June 25, 20241 yr people have been talking about these fudged stats for a while now, and I’ve never been able to bring myself to care at all. Are we really going to act like Michael Jordan was not one of the all-time great defensive players in NBA history because he was given an extra steal here or there? does this “news” really do anything to change your opinion on Michael Jordan or his defensive ability and prowess? for me it does not. especially considering that the genesis of all of this talk is a bunch of GenZ kids trying to paint the NBA legends from the 80s as plumbers. Edited June 25, 20241 yr by definitely not derka
June 25, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, d2o said: Exactly. They need to dig into Stockton's numbers next. I would LOVE to see a home/away split on those assist numbers I saw someone mention his and Russell's rebound numbers too. 10.9 home, 10.1 away.
June 25, 20241 yr Jordan was a great defensive player. But he was never even the best defensive player on his own team much less in the entire league. Pippen was better and always guarded the other teams best player.
June 26, 20241 yr Author 5 hours ago, definitely not derka said: people have been talking about these fudged stats for a while now, and I’ve never been able to bring myself to care at all. Are we really going to act like Michael Jordan was not one of the all-time great defensive players in NBA history because he was given an extra steal here or there? does this “news” really do anything to change your opinion on Michael Jordan or his defensive ability and prowess? for me it does not. especially considering that the genesis of all of this talk is a bunch of GenZ kids trying to paint the NBA legends from the 80s as plumbers. It's not to make us thinks MJ is a bad player, but this shows it wasn't an added steal here or there. It was more than doubled from 2 legit steals to credited with 5 in just one game the authors watched. In the other 5 games they could find from that season, the box score showed 59 steals on 41 live-ball turnovers, resulting in a whopping 18 excess steals.
June 26, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said: Jordan was a great defensive player. But he was never even the best defensive player on his own team much less in the entire league. Pippen was better and always guarded the other teams best player. pippen, rodman, mj, and harper all on one team in ‘96. you could rank mj 3rd or even 4th on that list without too much argument. eta- it could be my romanticized memory, but i do also feel like mj had a knack for making impactful defensive plays on a level that was truly elite. scottie was a better defender, but i seem to have more memories of making big, momentum shifting chase down blocks and important steals (‘98 on malone) than guys like harper, rodman, and pippen. Edited June 26, 20241 yr by definitely not derka
June 26, 20241 yr 12 minutes ago, n64ra said: It's not to make us thinks MJ is a bad player, but this shows it wasn't an added steal here or there. It was more than doubled from 2 legit steals to credited with 5 in just one game the authors watched. In the other 5 games they could find from that season, the box score showed 59 steals on 41 live-ball turnovers, resulting in a whopping 18 excess steals. ok yeah that’s pretty damned egregious, lol.
June 26, 20241 yr I don’t give a fuck about the stats. Jordan was the best defensive guard I’ve ever seen and probably the best defensive player. He literally made dudes cry and ruined careers.
June 26, 20241 yr 6 hours ago, definitely not derka said: people have been talking about these fudged stats for a while now, and I’ve never been able to bring myself to care at all. Are we really going to act like Michael Jordan was not one of the all-time great defensive players in NBA history because he was given an extra steal here or there? does this “news” really do anything to change your opinion on Michael Jordan or his defensive ability and prowess? for me it does not. especially considering that the genesis of all of this talk is a bunch of GenZ kids trying to paint the NBA legends from the 80s as plumbers. This is more of a targeted thing where specifically for Jordan's defensive player of the year season, the home scorekeeper insanely padded his numbers. Every other season his home/away splits for steals and blocks are essentially the same while in that season he got twice as many steals and blocks at home as he did away.
June 26, 20241 yr Russell Westbrook got an MVP doing the same shit, and his stans were all "TRIPLE DOUBLE MAN! STATS DON'T LIE! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!"
June 26, 20241 yr 11 hours ago, n64ra said: It's not to make us thinks MJ is a bad player, but this shows it wasn't an added steal here or there. It was more than doubled from 2 legit steals to credited with 5 in just one game the authors watched. In the other 5 games they could find from that season, the box score showed 59 steals on 41 live-ball turnovers, resulting in a whopping 18 excess steals. There's definitely a lot of times where Scottie made the defensive play and somehow magically MJ gets credited for the steal.
June 26, 20241 yr Author 13 hours ago, definitely not derka said: ok yeah that’s pretty damned egregious, lol. To be fair, (probably) every team was doing it that decade.
June 28, 20241 yr On 6/25/2024 at 3:17 PM, definitely not derka said: people have been talking about these fudged stats for a while now, and I’ve never been able to bring myself to care at all. Are we really going to act like Michael Jordan was not one of the all-time great defensive players in NBA history because he was given an extra steal here or there? does this “news” really do anything to change your opinion on Michael Jordan or his defensive ability and prowess? for me it does not. especially considering that the genesis of all of this talk is a bunch of GenZ kids trying to paint the NBA legends from the 80s as plumbers. I was told by some basketball experts in the Mavs thread that steals had nothing to do with how good a defender one is so the whole premise there is irrelevant
June 28, 20241 yr 7 hours ago, Sawbonz said: I was told by some basketball experts in the Mavs thread that steals had nothing to do with how good a defender one is so the whole premise there is irrelevant No, you were told that cherry picking one single stat doesn't tell the whole story, and that there are plenty of meh defenders that can get steals by playing passing lanes and exposing their team defense to backdoor cuts. Edited June 28, 20241 yr by Pam Cummings
June 28, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, Pam Cummings said: No, you were told that cherry picking one single stat doesn't tell the whole story, and that there are plenty of meh defenders that can get steals by playing passing lanes and exposing their team defense to backdoor cuts. No, not a single stat was offered to show Doncic was below average
June 28, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, Sawbonz said: No, not a single stat was offered to show Doncic was below average You guys cherry picked some stat that suggested he's like some top 10 defender. Just stop.
June 28, 20241 yr Just now, Pam Cummings said: You guys cherry picked some stat that suggested he's like some top 10 defender. Just stop. The argument was that Doncic was “above average”. He is top 10 in a few stats, which clearly would put him in the above average category. No one argued he was an elite defender. Just stop
June 28, 20241 yr 5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said: The argument was that Doncic was “above average”. He is top 10 in a few stats, which clearly would put him in the above average category. No one argued he was an elite defender. Just stop Yes, you literally did. Our conclusion was that he is an average defender that will be picked on in certain matchups when teams like Boston have the personnel to do so. That was it. Then you bunch of homers wandered in and acted like we were saying the guy is a terrible player. Just keep that shit in the Mavs thread where you can all agree with each other.
June 28, 20241 yr I’ve changed my mind. Most of Doncic steals were probably faked Edited June 28, 20241 yr by Sawbonz
June 28, 20241 yr 11 minutes ago, Sawbonz said: I’ve changed my mind. Most of Doncic steals were probably faked You guys told me that your strategy on defense was to funnel everything into the bigs which is an odd strategy if you think you have above average wing defenders.
June 28, 20241 yr On 6/25/2024 at 4:05 PM, KingBobo81 said: 10.9 home, 10.1 away. stockton's were pretty legit. but they weren't difficult. pass it to karl malone for 15 years.
June 28, 20241 yr On 6/25/2024 at 11:58 AM, Pam Cummings said: Yeah and I'm starting to question Wilt's 55 rebounds in one game. I think in those days it was probably legit. There was no huge advantage to pumping up numbers for awards. in specific to rebounds. shooting back then was way worse. The box score is interesting. celts missed 57. Warriors missed 76 shots. Wilt missed 27 himself. they don't split Oreb and Dreb. my guess is it is legit but a lot of them were Oreb and some off his own miss even. there were 133 rebound opportunities on shots and then another 29 on FT's. Also the game was close so he probably played almost he entire game. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196011240PHW.html
June 28, 20241 yr 6 hours ago, Sawbonz said: No, not a single stat was offered to show Doncic was below average
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