September 7Sep 7 1 hour ago, kevwun said: It was because Norris let him pit first to stay ahead of LeClerc. It was fair. They let them race after and Norris was faster just like he was all race. Yeah, pretty much where I'm at. I get bad pit stops happen, and the position swap feels a little wonky there... ...but the only reason why Lando wasn't the first to pit as he normally would have as the lead car was because he had built such a substantial lead over Piastri that there was no threat of Oscar undercutting him, so the team prioritized protecting Oscar from Leclerc. Funny how this shit always seems to happen to McLaren though. Edited September 7Sep 7 by aggie08
September 7Sep 7 Covering Charles was unnecessary. I think Norris was worried that Oscar was closing fast (under 3 seconds) and the pit order swap would make it harder for Oscar to pass with less laps to go. If the same pit stop times happened Oscar might have had the overcut off track.
September 7Sep 7 They didn’t need to cover Charles. There was a slow pit stop. Oscar got through. Thats racing. Unlucky. But races are decided by safety car luck or mechanical bad luck all the time. I do get why Oscar followed the orders, he has chosen to keep peace in the garage. But I think once the slow pit stop happened the “deal” to swap back ends.
September 7Sep 7 They didn’t need to cover Charles. There was a slow pit stop. Oscar got through. Thats racing. Unlucky. But races are decided by safety car luck or mechanical bad luck all the time. I do get why Oscar followed the orders, he has chosen to keep peace in the garage. But I think once the slow pit stop happened the “deal” to swap back ends. If they didn’t need to cover Charles, they didn’t need to pit Lando second. The team made a team call and the team screwed up. Give the place back - otherwise don’t expect preferential treatment on pit strategy.
September 7Sep 7 I’m pretty sure Lando would have passed him anyway. He built the same 6 second gap over Piastri that Max had over Lando before the first pit stops. Edited September 7Sep 7 by kevwun
September 7Sep 7 6 hours ago, kevwun said: It was because Norris let him pit first to stay ahead of LeClerc. It was fair. They let them race after and Norris was faster just like he was all race. Fuck that, Lando came out behind Oscar because of the slow pit stop because of the error by the crew member tightening the front left and not the order they went into the pit. Not Oscar's fault and how fucking mentally fragile is Lando they have to coddle his ass. Funny, reading Newey's book he talked about the bull shit politics at McLaren when Dennis was in charge and I guess it is still the same. Keep what you fucking kill and score what you and are not given.
September 7Sep 7 1 hour ago, kevwun said: I’m pretty sure Lando would have passed him anyway. He built the same 6 second gap over Piastri that Max had over Lando before the first pit stops. Don't confuse race pace while they are on a parade circuit behind Max and Lando trying to catch Oscar when Oscar is closing out points. One guy is drinking coffee and the other is bitching about the new parts, i mean new leads. Lando is Jack Lemon.
September 7Sep 7 1 hour ago, kevwun said: I’m pretty sure Lando would have passed him anyway. He built the same 6 second gap over Piastri that Max had over Lando before the first pit stops. Piastri had cut his 6 second deficit (from when max pitted) to the 3.2 when Piastri pitted. I think Mclearn wanted to avoid Piastri catching Norris Edited September 7Sep 7 by ChickenSandwich
September 7Sep 7 16 minutes ago, PGFrog said: Don't confuse race pace while they are on a parade circuit behind Max and Lando trying to catch Oscar when Oscar is closing out points. One guy is drinking coffee and the other is bitching about the new parts, i mean new leads. Lando is Jack Lemon. Did you watch Glengarry Glen Ross and come away with the opinion that the Alec Baldwin character was supposed to be anything other than a complete shithead?
September 7Sep 7 Piastri is generally faster than Norris, but Lando was faster in practice, qualifying and the race this weekend. I’m ok with just saying Lando was faster than him this weekend.
September 7Sep 7 Seems weird McLaren is worried about a position swap with the points leader that late in the race. It just comes off as a manufactured title fight when stuff like this happens. What’s going to happen if Piastri has a PU failure and gets a DNF resulting in Lando catching up in the points? From that point on is McLaren going to let drivers deal with consequences of bad strategy or pit crew failures? If not, will Lando or Piastri be willing to do a swap later in the season?
September 7Sep 7 They’ve been consistent regardless of who was leading in the points. They made Lando swap with Piastri when he was ahead in the points in Hungary. It really doesn’t matter as Lando isn’t going to catch him. The only drivers who have overcome that big of a deficit are all much better than Lando is. Max is the only active driver that has done it. Edited September 7Sep 7 by kevwun
September 7Sep 7 24 minutes ago, Paper_jam said: Did you watch Glengarry Glen Ross and come away with the opinion that the Alec Baldwin character was supposed to be anything other than a complete shithead? That is what you took from that? Mas is a shithead, so was Schumacher and so was Senna on the track. There is a reason they race for time, points, and money. I will make it simple, Oscar is a FUCKING CLOSER.
September 7Sep 7 15 minutes ago, kevwun said: Piastri is generally faster than Norris, but Lando was faster in practice, qualifying and the race this weekend. I’m ok with just saying Lando was faster than him this weekend. Do they give points for practice?
September 7Sep 7 Also, McLaren really had no choice after last year in Hungary when the roles were exactly reversed. Oscar was ahead, they pitted Lando first to protect him from a Hamilton undercut, and Lando ended up undercutting Oscar. 20 laps of begging Lando to swap back positions, and he finally did. I'm guessing that's why Lando was completely silent on the radio today after the pit stop: testing his team to see if they'd do the same for him without being prompted. But, hey, McLaren, maybe you should stop pitting out of order. kevwun beat me to it. Almost identical to Hungary, except this was for 2nd and 3rd instead of 1st and 2nd. Edited September 7Sep 7 by aggie08
September 7Sep 7 9 minutes ago, PGFrog said: Do they give points for practice? If we’re going to ignore actual car lap times in favor of driver ability, Max should win every race.
September 7Sep 7 8 minutes ago, kevwun said: If we’re going to ignore actual car lap times in favor of driver ability, Max should win every race. What the fuck are you talking about? Seriously you are throwing more shit against the wall than the theory out their McLaren did the flip to help give Lando a cushion over Max.
September 7Sep 7 That Piastri was somehow actually still faster than Lando this weekend while all of the numbers say he wasn't. They swapped positions because it was fair and that's how they've handled it since they've become the fastest car. They don't take in to account who is ahead in the points. They're handling it differently than pretty much how every other team would. Good or bad, they've been consistent with it and I can appreciate that. Edited September 7Sep 7 by kevwun
September 7Sep 7 It was dumb in Hungary and they’ve continued to compound the issue now with Piastri trying to win the championship. They’ve consistently been shit at handling this.
September 7Sep 7 8 minutes ago, kevwun said: They swapped positions because it was fair and that's how they've handled it since they've become the fastest car. They don't take in to account who is ahead in the points. They're handling it differently than pretty much how every other team would. Good or bad, they've been consistent with it and I can appreciate that. You could even argue that last year the stakes were even higher, and they torpedoed any realistic chance of Lando catching Max in points when they forced him to let Oscar take the win in Hungary in the name of fairness. Not following the same template today would have gone a long way towards fracturing the team.
September 7Sep 7 8 minutes ago, kevwun said: That Piastri was somehow actually still faster than Lando this weekend while all of the numbers say he wasn't. They swapped positions because it was fair and that's how they've handled it since they've become the fastest car. They don't take in to account who is ahead in the points. They're handling it differently than pretty much how every other team would. Good or bad, they've been consistent with it and I can appreciate that. What aren't you getting, the only part of the weekend that truly matters is the race. This was not the same as Hungary and in Hungary Lando didn't exactly take to immediately following team orders. https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13182681/lando-norris-explains-hungarian-grand-prix-controversy-with-mclaren-team-mate-oscar-piastri Believe as you wish, but his was all about soothing Lando's ego and Oscar knows it, Max knows it, and makes me like Oscar even more.
September 7Sep 7 2 minutes ago, Levi said: It was dumb in Hungary and they’ve continued to compound the issue now with Piastri trying to win the championship. They’ve consistently been shit at handling this. Consistently shit is a pretty good summation.
September 7Sep 7 Just now, aggie08 said: You could even argue that last year the stakes were even higher, and they torpedoed any realistic chance of Lando catching Max in points when they forced him to let Oscar take the win in Hungary in the name of fairness. Not following the same template today would have gone a long way towards fracturing the team. And? If Lando got mad and left they can't find another driver to take that seat? If Lando is in the Merc and George the papya who is faster? Switch Lando and Charles and Lando wins in the Ferrari?
September 7Sep 7 3 minutes ago, PGFrog said: This was not the same as Hungary How does it differ? Lando was their best/only shot at winning a driver's championship last year, and they still forced the swap. McLaren set the precedent, not the drivers.
September 7Sep 7 5 minutes ago, aggie08 said: How does it differ? Lando was their best/only shot at winning a driver's championship last year, and they still forced the swap. McLaren set the precedent, not the drivers. The reasons why the drivers had to make the switches in the race. Hungary was a team decision not allowing Oscar who was leading the race to come in first while this time Oscar got the lead because of a slow pit stop. If the stop is a normal stop Lando comes out first, but because of the slow stop Oscar got the lead.
September 7Sep 7 19 minutes ago, Levi said: It was dumb in Hungary and they’ve continued to compound the issue now with Piastri trying to win the championship. They’ve consistently been shit at handling this. Lando in the article I linked said McLaren should have pitted Oscar first and they didn't because they wanted to undercut Lewis to get the 1-2 finish which is classic of them to way over think things.
September 7Sep 7 2 minutes ago, PGFrog said: The reasons why the drivers had to make the switches in the race. Hungary was a team decision not allowing Oscar who was leading the race to come in first while this time Oscar got the lead because of a slow pit stop. If the stop is a normal stop Lando comes out first, but because of the slow stop Oscar got the lead. This makes the opposite point you want it to. Lando undercut Oscar fair and square last year. Pit stops times were within normal ranges. They were close enough before pitting for an undercut to be highly probable, but McLaren brought in Lando first anyway. Then they still forced Lando to hand Oscar the win. Today, Lando built a big enough margin that an undercut shouldn't have been a possibility, the team called in Oscar first because they had the luxury of being overprotective of him wrt Leclerc, then the team fumbled in pit lane. If you make the swap in the first scenario, you absolutely have to in the second.
September 7Sep 7 4 minutes ago, PGFrog said: Lando in the article I linked said McLaren should have pitted Oscar first and they didn't because they wanted to undercut Lewis to get the 1-2 finish which is classic of them to way over think things. I don’t understand it. If McLaren was my team, I’d be frustrated as hell at the way they’re going about this.
September 7Sep 7 4 minutes ago, Levi said: If McLaren was my team, I’d be frustrated as hell at the way they’re going about this. Am I off base here? Or is this not accurate? McLaren is clear and away for the championship. Piastri has just about clinched his title. Lando's got 2nd just about clinched. Nothing they did yesterday affected any of those things.
September 7Sep 7 8 minutes ago, aggie08 said: This makes the opposite point you want it to. Lando undercut Oscar fair and square last year. Pit stops times were within normal ranges. They were close enough before pitting for an undercut to be highly probable, but McLaren brought in Lando first anyway. Then they still forced Lando to hand Oscar the win. Today, Lando built a big enough margin that an undercut shouldn't have been a possibility, the team called in Oscar first because they had the luxury of being overprotective of him wrt Leclerc, then the team fumbled in pit lane. If you make the swap in the first scenario, you absolutely have to in the second. No, Oscar beat Lando off the start for the lead and Lando fell behind I believe George and used up his tires trying to get past him. Because of his poor start and his using up his tires faster than expected McLaren changed strategy pitting Lando earlier than expected by them. Later in the race McLaren decided to pit Lando first not to undercut Oscar, but to undercut Lewis even though Oscar was leading the race and he had the much older tires. I truly don't understand your comment that Lando undercut Oscar fair and square. The team wanted to make the call to get the 1-2, they told Oscar they would switch him back to the lead and it took 20 laps of radio bull shit with Lando before he agreed to give back the spot that would have never happened had he gotten a decent start or not used his tires up too fast early in the race. How in the world can you even think that is the same situation as today?
September 7Sep 7 4 minutes ago, Mittens said: Am I off base here? Or is this not accurate? McLaren is clear and away for the championship. Piastri has just about clinched his title. Lando's got 2nd just about clinched. Nothing they did yesterday affected any of those things. Also, this. We're arguing over 3 points. McLaren has already locked up the constructor's championship, and they're going to finish 1-2 in the Driver's. Going back on the precedent that they set last year over 3 points (I guess technically 6) would be an even bigger self own, and for what purpose?
September 7Sep 7 5 minutes ago, Mittens said: Am I off base here? Or is this not accurate? McLaren is clear and away for the championship. Piastri has just about clinched his title. Lando's got 2nd just about clinched. Nothing they did yesterday affected any of those things. Oscar has not clinched the title. He has a 31 point lead over Lando with I believe 8 races remaining and while he should be able to hold that lead it is far from clinched as one DNF from Oscar and a Lando win (presuming Max doesn't challenge Lando causing Lando to wet himself) and you have a title fight on your hand. I would offer 2016 as an example of what can go wrong late in the eason that decides a title and I would have loved to hear Toto tell Lewis to flip positions with Niko.
September 7Sep 7 3 minutes ago, aggie08 said: Also, this. We're arguing over 3 points. McLaren has already locked up the constructor's championship, and they're going to finish 1-2 in the Driver's. Going back on the precedent that they set last year over 3 points (I guess technically 6) would be an even bigger self own, and for what purpose? Explain to me what happened just last week that opened up this "big" lead? There is NO HISTORY of late season DNFs impacting championships and all titles are won by double digits right?
September 7Sep 7 Just now, PGFrog said: Oscar has not clinched the title. Right. Which is why I wrote this: 10 minutes ago, Mittens said: Piastri has just about clinched his title.
September 7Sep 7 Just now, Mittens said: Right. Which is why I wrote this: Which isn't the situation.
September 7Sep 7 10 minutes ago, PGFrog said: No, Oscar beat Lando off the start for the lead and Lando fell behind I believe George and used up his tires trying to get past him. Because of his poor start and his using up his tires faster than expected McLaren changed strategy pitting Lando earlier than expected by them. Later in the race McLaren decided to pit Lando first not to undercut Oscar, but to undercut Lewis even though Oscar was leading the race and he had the much older tires. I truly don't understand your comment that Lando undercut Oscar fair and square. The team wanted to make the call to get the 1-2, they told Oscar they would switch him back to the lead and it took 20 laps of radio bull shit with Lando before he agreed to give back the spot that would have never happened had he gotten a decent start or not used his tires up too fast early in the race. How in the world can you even think that is the same situation as today? Okay, man. You see it through way different glasses. Last year in Hungary was a much more in doubt result than today when the last round of pitting happened. And only Lando had a shot at the WDC. If you manufacturer the swap then, you have to today, when Lando was clearly the 2nd best car on the track. You disagree. That's fine. Edited September 7Sep 7 by aggie08
September 7Sep 7 They are absolutely choosing to go with fairness because they have the luxury of doing so. If the Red Bull was a little faster and it was a crapshoot most weeks whether a McLaren or Max would win, they would have picked a driver to favor by now.
September 7Sep 7 9 minutes ago, Mittens said: Am I off base here? Or is this not accurate? McLaren is clear and away for the championship. Piastri has just about clinched his title. Lando's got 2nd just about clinched. Nothing they did yesterday affected any of those things. 4 minutes ago, aggie08 said: Also, this. We're arguing over 3 points. McLaren has already locked up the constructor's championship, and they're going to finish 1-2 in the Driver's. Going back on the precedent that they set last year over 3 points (I guess technically 6) would be an even bigger self own, and for what purpose? That’s kinda the point though. It’s 3 points and McLaren is worried about who’s feelings are going to get hurt because they screwed up a year ago and don’t know how to handle the situation with any maturity. Maybe I’m wrong because I haven’t been into F1 that long but 31 points with 8 races left doesn’t seem like it’s a done deal for Piastri. All it’s takes is a Kimi kamikaze or an engine failure to make it close for Piastri. It’s a luxury for McLaren till it’s not.
September 7Sep 7 An orange car is still going to win the championship though and they will finish 1 & 2 and win the constructors. They legit don't care which of their drivers it is because of the lead they have over the rest of the field. Edited September 7Sep 7 by kevwun
September 7Sep 7 1 minute ago, Levi said: That’s kinda the point though. It’s 3 points and McLaren is worried about who’s feelings are going to get hurt because they screwed up a year ago and don’t know how to handle the situation with any maturity. Maybe I’m wrong because I haven’t been into F1 that long but 31 points with 8 races left doesn’t seem like it’s a done deal for Piastri. All it’s takes is a Kimi kamikaze or an engine failure to make it close for Piastri. It’s a luxury for McLaren till it’s not. Levi gets it, during the early part of the race, both Lando and Oscar easily could have been involved in a crash with Max and then Charles. One DNF from Oscar changes the title race and there is history of such things happening. That is the only precedent that matters.
September 7Sep 7 Just now, Levi said: That’s kinda the point though. It’s 3 points and McLaren is worried about who’s feelings are going to get hurt because they screwed up a year ago and don’t know how to handle the situation with any maturity. Maybe I’m wrong because I haven’t been into F1 that long but 31 points with 8 races left doesn’t seem like it’s a done deal for Piastri. All it’s takes is a Kimi kamikaze or an engine failure to make it close for Piastri. It’s a luxury for McLaren till it’s not. Oh, for sure. I thought that Hungary was fucking stupid and anti-competitive in real-time. You either pit Oscar first, in order, and let Lando fend for himself, or you pit Lando (who was way ahead in points) and live with Oscar's frustration if he gets undercut. But that's McLaren. This year, one of their drivers is going to win the WDC, and they're at least pretending to not care who.
September 7Sep 7 10 minutes ago, PGFrog said: Which isn't the situation. It is the situation. Barring something crazy happening, Piastri is going to win the title.
September 7Sep 7 Just now, aggie08 said: Oh, for sure. I thought that Hungary was fucking stupid and anti-competitive in real-time. You either pit Oscar first, in order, and let Lando fend for himself, or you pit Lando (who was way ahead in points) and live with Oscar's frustration if he gets undercut. But that's McLaren. This year, one of their drivers is going to win the WDC, and they're at least pretending to not care who. I totally agree but the bold is where my head is at. If your Lando or Piastri in this situation, how would you be feeling as a competitor trying to win the title?
September 7Sep 7 Well the only reason Piastri is in the lead is because McLaren didn't choose to favor Norris. He wouldn't have caught and passed him if they had. He's going to win the title because he earned it. That's probably a pretty good feeling. Edited September 7Sep 7 by kevwun
September 7Sep 7 8 minutes ago, Levi said: I totally agree but the bold is where my head is at. If your Lando or Piastri in this situation, how would you be feeling as a competitor trying to win the title? I suppose it would depend on which driver you ask. I'm sure Lando is happy as the trailing in points driver to be able to fight his teammate for wins...but still kind of pissed that he, as the more experienced driver, wasn't the clear #1 from when Oscar was a rookie. I'm sure Oscar thinks his much improved Saturday results and race consistency should have earned him priority...but is also glad, as a 2nd year driver, that team orders weren't put in place from Race 1. Not saying McLaren is handling it will, but there's also not a clear answer either. Edited September 7Sep 7 by aggie08
September 7Sep 7 6 minutes ago, Mittens said: It is the situation. Barring something crazy happening, Piastri is going to win the title. Engine failure isn't crazy nor unheard of with the Merc power unit. Not as frequent as it once was, but consider that Lando just went out the prior race.
September 7Sep 7 1 minute ago, PGFrog said: Engine failure isn't crazy nor unheard of with the Merc power unit. Not as frequent as it once was, but consider that Lando just went out the prior race. The only time this year, and only the 2nd time in the last 80 races for McLaren. So yeah, pretty rare.
September 7Sep 7 Pirelli completely fucked over this race by going a compound too hard. Rinse. Repeat.
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