December 31, 2024Dec 31 22 minutes ago, totallynotabuttpirate said: OT but this dude makes the best debrief videos imo: https://www.youtube.com/@pilot-debrief/videos
December 31, 2024Dec 31 11 minutes ago, bschoolprof said: I found this breakdown helpful. He certainly seems to think they had at least 1 working engine and some flight controls for the flare. Interesting analysis but prefacing the entire discussion with a statement that "...the explosive growth of aviation overseas...." was probably worthy of a do-over.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 I mean--I'm not doubting you. Your explanation certainly fits the facts as we know them. But that really would involve a cascading number of fuck-ups that is almost unimaginable.If it turns out that a series of avoidable human errors happened, that’s a much harder reality to accept than the explanation that a freak bird strike or equipment failure occurred. Just the idea that maybe 179 people didn’t have to die on this one.I would also assume most of us would like to believe the pilots are trained well enough and the plane is engineered in such a way to prevent a worst case scenario of poor decision making under pressure, resulting in catastrophic death.I wonder if there’s any possibility of foul play. When the scarce surface level details don’t seem to make sense, perhaps there was a nefarious actor involved. Hopefully not, but I guess time will tell.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 22 hours ago, RPM said: *Slats 12 hours ago, Mother mopar said: Negative, they are called LEFs on other aircraft design series. (Stop thinking commercial) I specific this in my previous post where I mentioned NOT this particular design series. I'm not in hydraulics but I do aviation consulting for a living. The 737 has Krueger flaps, which are considered a LE device.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 10 hours ago, futureman said: dumb question amnesty here but I infer from your statement that it was less difficult on older airliners? it seems like if you “lose” everything you should still be allowed the control to manually do what is necessary to get the plane on the ground however possible in the “safest” way possible. why would newer models take that away? not sure if I asked that right but the idea that a newer, more advanced plane would be worse at something so vital in a disaster situation doesn’t make sense to me. Older aircraft had hydraulic controls where the stick and pedals were mechanically linked to the control surfaces. In the newer planes it's all fly by wire where the computer is adding additional inputs to control surfaces to achieve the outcome the pilot indicates with their controls
December 31, 2024Dec 31 13 hours ago, Mother mopar said: Negative, they are called LEFs on other aircraft design series. (Stop thinking commercial) I specific this in my previous post where I mentioned NOT this particular design series. I'm not in hydraulics but I do aviation consulting for a living. Just going on my highly untrained WWII flight simulator experience. You mean things changed that much in 50 years? Inconceivable!
December 31, 2024Dec 31 8 minutes ago, RPM said: Just going on my highly untrained WWII flight simulator experience. You mean things changed that much in 50 years? Inconceivable! You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means
December 31, 2024Dec 31 5 minutes ago, Hate said: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means
December 31, 2024Dec 31 30 minutes ago, Captainant said: Older aircraft had hydraulic controls where the stick and pedals were mechanically linked to the control surfaces. In the newer planes it's all fly by wire where the computer is adding additional inputs to control surfaces to achieve the outcome the pilot indicates with their controls 737 is not fly by wire. All the main controls are hydraulic and mechanical.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 16 minutes ago, Your Mom said: 737 is not fly by wire. All the main controls are hydraulic and mechanical. Huh, I could have sworn there was a major computer input component added with the NG airframes. Maybe I'm misremembering the hydraulic boost "power steering" on the NG's and the spoilers on the MAX.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 Spoilers on the Max are fly by wire but that’s just to get them up quick on the ground. 787 and 777 are the only true fly by wire planes Boeing has built. Edited December 31, 2024Dec 31 by Your Mom
December 31, 2024Dec 31 12 hours ago, bschoolprof said: I found this breakdown helpful. He certainly seems to think they had at least 1 working engine and some flight controls for the flare. the Jeju's did this
December 31, 2024Dec 31 1 hour ago, RPM said: Just going on my highly untrained WWII flight simulator experience. You mean things changed that much in 50 years? Inconceivable! Which simulator?
December 31, 2024Dec 31 Since speculation is warranted and productive, some interesting facts:speculation from those videos. -Go around flight path did not allow enough time to do necessary checklists -There are three independent hydraulic systems and one doesn't depend on engine power. - Landing gear can be lowered manually by pulling cables in cockpit but it takes "a long time" for the gear to drop -Flight was a red eye, pilots could have been very tired -Looks like RH thrust reverser deployed but not LH. Suggest LH engine inop -Pilots could have shut down the wrong engine and ended up with two disabled instead of one? -Smoke in the cockpit from bird strike could account for the rapid go around and landing without doing checklists -Dumb to have earthen and concrete berm at end of runway. Bad design
December 31, 2024Dec 31 One interesting point the guys in one of those videos posted above made is that the video of the bird strike looks like it could be from a phone and depending on how it was being shot could be a mirrored image. I guess the insinuation if that was the case is that it could have been the left engine that took the bird hit as they later discuss that is the one that “appears” to be down in one landing video from end of runway.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 2 hours ago, ClubWhatever said: -Looks like RH thrust reverser deployed but not LH. Suggest LH engine inop Is there video that shows the left engine's thrust reverser closed? Maybe I missed it. Quote -Dumb to have earthen and concrete berm at end of runway. Bad design Yep. The ILS locator antennae construction was atypical and not ideal to be sure, but the much bigger problem was that they came in long, touching down much too far down that runway. ... and that they came in very fast relative to normal landing speeds.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 Pretty amazing. Here's video from the safe belly landing of the LOT 767 in 2011. I think it has flaps fully down. The plane stopped in half of the runway length. Captain is a got damn hero.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 9 minutes ago, wood said: Is there video that shows the left engine's thrust reverser closed? Maybe I missed it. Yep. The ILS locator antennae construction was atypical and not ideal to be sure, but the much bigger problem was that they came in long, touching down much too far down that runway. ... and that they came in very fast relative to normal landing speeds. I think landing with the wind likely had something to do with them landing high and hot. But that raises another question of why they flew a teardrop pattern to land with the wind rather than going around.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said: I think landing with the wind likely had something to do with them landing high and hot. But that raises another question of why they flew a teardrop pattern to land with the wind rather than going around. Supposedly the winds were calm.
December 31, 2024Dec 31 Guessing bird strike, they did a go around, shut off the wrong engine, lost all hydraulics, panicked and thought let's just put this down. Didn't do much of a checklist if they forgot about manual landing gear procedure. Probably never started the APU. Cultural issues, pilot error and panicked.As crazy as it sounds, this is the best working theory so far. Unless there's uncontrollable smoke or fire, there's just no reason to rush like that.
January 1Jan 1 Another breakdown video. This guy always has a flair for the dramatic, which is not really my thing, but there is some interesting stuff in here on the systems and the APU.
January 1Jan 1 On 12/31/2024 at 6:01 AM, SuperSport said: The 737 has Krueger flaps, which are considered a LE device. Well no wonder it crashed.
January 11Jan 11 And the off season begins. South Korea air crash recorders missing final four minutes Flight data and cockpit voice recorders from the South Korean passenger plane that crashed last month stopped recording four minutes before the disaster, the country's transport ministry has said. The crash of the Jeju Air flight killed 179 people, making it the deadliest air accident on Korean soil. Two cabin crew members were the only survivors. Investigators had hoped that data on the recorders would provide insights about the crucial moments before the tragedy. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjr8dwd1rdno
January 11Jan 11 1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said: And the off season begins. South Korea air crash recorders missing final four minutes Flight data and cockpit voice recorders from the South Korean passenger plane that crashed last month stopped recording four minutes before the disaster, the country's transport ministry has said. The crash of the Jeju Air flight killed 179 people, making it the deadliest air accident on Korean soil. Two cabin crew members were the only survivors. Investigators had hoped that data on the recorders would provide insights about the crucial moments before the tragedy. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjr8dwd1rdno 11 minutes ago, Ted Lange said: So does that lineup when the potential bird strike happened? It's consistent with a loss of power following a bird strike to the engines, and that model of 737 didn't have a battery backup for the flight recorder Edited January 11Jan 11 by Captainant
January 11Jan 11 47 minutes ago, Captainant said: It's consistent with a loss of power following a bird strike to the engines, and that model of 737 didn't have a battery backup for the flight recorder I would assume that the FDR and cockpit recorder are powered off the APU. Does this mean that APU wasn't engaged. Isn't starting the APU practictly Step #1 after a power loss?
January 11Jan 11 the 2 survivors were the pilots if they are alive 2 weeks after the crash they have already told 'the authorities' what happened and why that hasn't come out yet is probably not good for boeing
January 11Jan 11 Popular Post 4 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said: the 2 survivors were the pilots if they are alive 2 weeks after the crash they have already told 'the authorities' what happened and why that hasn't come out yet is probably not good for boeing The survivors were two flight attendants in the back of the plane. If they were piloting the plane, then I believe we found the problem.
January 11Jan 11 2 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said: shit - i thought the survivors were the pilots derp How could you watch that crash, know that everybody but 2 people died and think that the two people who survived were in the front of the plane?
January 11Jan 11 because of the attitude of the plane - the nose was up - it looked to me like the only part of the plane that had any chance of clearing the (idiotically placed) concrete wall admittedly i have not been paying attention to this crash until this morning
January 11Jan 11 Popular Post Just now, Hagbard Celine said: admittedly i have not been paying attention to this crash until this morning Shit, that makes you an expert on this site.
January 11Jan 11 So from what I'm reading here and elsewhere, I guess this further suggests birdstrikes on both engines? Damn.
January 11Jan 11 I'm not a pilot, but it sounds more like a crap ton of pilot error. Even if they did lose both engines to bird strikes (a la Miracle on the Hudson), they were airborne more than twice the amount of time that Sully was, plus they did a go around teardrop which would be next to impossible with no thrust. Could the APU have been damaged and wouldn't start? Maybe, but with the redundancy built into airlines I would think that would be highly unlikely.
January 11Jan 11 1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said: Maybe it was a flock of seagulls, and they couldn’t get away.
January 11Jan 11 3 hours ago, wood said: So from what I'm reading here and elsewhere, I guess this further suggests birdstrikes on both engines? Damn. Or they shut down the wrong engine.
January 11Jan 11 3 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said: because of the attitude of the plane - the nose was up
January 12Jan 12 I just read that this 737 has no backup power for both the CVR and FDR. If both electronic circuits fail (ie both engines stop working), the 737 relies on a battry pack for emergency power, but the CVR and FDR are not powerd by it. Can any of you aviation types confirm? From Reddit: Quote The 737NG was designed before battery backups form FDR/CVR were required by the FAA. When the FAA required them, they didn't mandate that it be retrofitted so since this plane was built before the FAA mandate, it does not have battery backups for the FDR/CVR, this means that in the event of a total loss of AC power there is no power for the recorders.
January 12Jan 12 On 1/11/2025 at 11:06 AM, Pato del Muerto said: Maybe it was a flock of seagulls, and they couldn’t get away.
January 12Jan 12 On 1/11/2025 at 12:06 PM, Pato del Muerto said: Maybe it was a flock of seagulls, and they couldn’t get away. Username checks out?
January 12Jan 12 33 minutes ago, wood said: I just read that this 737 has no backup power for both the CVR and FDR. If both electronic circuits fail (ie both engines stop working), the 737 relies on a battry pack for emergency power, but the CVR and FDR are not powerd by it. Can any of you aviation types confirm? From Reddit: well, I guess we can conclude with some confidence that a total loss of AC power means that both engines were not working four minutes before the crash
January 15Jan 15 On 1/12/2025 at 2:36 PM, wood said: I just read that this 737 has no backup power for both the CVR and FDR. If both electronic circuits fail (ie both engines stop working), the 737 relies on a battry pack for emergency power, but the CVR and FDR are not powerd by it. Can any of you aviation types confirm? From Reddit: This is true for older models of 737s. Around 2008 the rules were changed to require an self-contained battery source for the CVR, but airlines were not required to retrofit. https://www.aviacionline.com/accident-in-korea-why-did-the-black-boxes-of-jeju-airs-boeing-737-800-stop-recording
January 15Jan 15 34 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said: This is true for older models of 737s. Around 2008 the rules were changed to require an self-contained battery source for the CVR, but airlines were not required to retrofit. https://www.aviacionline.com/accident-in-korea-why-did-the-black-boxes-of-jeju-airs-boeing-737-800-stop-recording Right. What I read somewhere is that they were allowed to comply under the old rule, which isn't great imho.
January 19Jan 19 Crash Investigators Find Bird Feathers & Blood In Both Engines Of Jeju Air Boeing 737 https://simpleflying.com/jeju-air-boeing-737-bird-strike/
January 19Jan 19 Yeah looking like birds took out both engines, leading to total electrical failure etc.
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