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1 minute ago, Vegas64 said:

What does that look like in your mind as it pertains to the government shutdown and how to get out of this jackpot? (Also I read Trump is going to take billions from tariff slush funds and pay the military, so pretend that an upset military is off the table)?

this is quite literally unconstitutional, so if you're cool with tearing that document up it's all a bit of a moot point. Congress controls taxation and spending. In the constitution, at least.

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    Cool, we're still arguing as though there is some form of "messaging" the opposition party could use that would appeal to the shitheads infesting this country. The republican strategy for fifty fuckin

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Is Donkey Cigars showing his ass again?

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

this is quite literally unconstitutional, so if you're cool with tearing that document up it's all a bit of a moot point. Congress controls taxation and spending. In the constitution, at least.

I'm not cool with it AT ALL, but last I checked, the government doesn't give a crap with what I'm cool with or not. As someone said, I'm just a guy on Surly Horns which is an internet messageboard. 

But that doesn't change the fact that it was reported in the news today as something Trump is going to do (or at least thinking about doing):

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/19/trump-struggles-to-crack-his-tariffs-piggy-bank-00612284

Quote

 

President Donald Trump and his top officials have repeatedly promised to tap the billions of dollars collected from their historic tariff hikes for key priorities like troop pay, nutrition assistance and farmer bailouts. That’s not how it works.

The administration has brought in about $200 billion in tariff revenue so far this year, cash the president and members of his Cabinet have boasted is a sign their tariff hikes are succeeding — and have suggested they can now use at their discretion.

 

 

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yep. Personally, I view access to healthcare as an inalienable right, not a privilege, as this phony seems to think. Advocating for a vote that takes away a right that helps the disadvantaged is reich-wing shit. 

I don't see that as what he's advocating for. The vote to take healthcare away has already passed, with no democrats voting for it. This is the democrats keeping the government closed in a last-gasp effort to keep the republicans from suffering from their own bill. It would be awesome if it ends up working, but if the democrats end up caving so government workers can start getting paid again and Federal projects stop getting cancelled, that doesn't make it their fault that millions of people get the loss in healthcare that they voted for.

16 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Brisket also shouldn't be in charge of the federal government. 

kombucha-girl.gif

That's right and I'm being told that universal healthcare is essentially too sacred of a cow in politics and can't be used to counterpunch the R's with because, and this is true, some of the D voters will be hurt in the fall out (the vast majority would be their own base, again). So we are waiting on a utopian ideal solution it seems to get the government back up and running.

What does that look like now that we've essentially boiled the shut down to an ACA issue? 

Edited by Vegas64

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're advocating for millions to lose their health care and for people to die to score cheap political points. Fuck. You.

That’s what they voted for.

Not only are you violating the central tenet of democratic rule, but also a central tenet of Christianity by not honoring the dignity of their choice. 

So it’s not cheap politics points.

Its the most American and Christian thing to do…..

4 minutes ago, F250 said:

Is Donkey Cigars showing his ass again?

image.thumb.png.605b7bd43c2cd1b4b373ed236804325f.png

Just now, Dnaguy said:

That’s what they voted for.

Not only are you violating the central tenet of democratic rule, but also a central tenet of Christianity by not honoring the dignity of their choice. 

So it’s not cheap politics points.

Its the most American and Christian thing to do…..

Hallelujah GIFs | Tenor

Okay I'll bite. Who is this Donkey Cigar character and why do you think we are related?

37 minutes ago, immamac said:

I don't know if this is a serious question or not. 

Because it's the right thing to do and governing isn't about hurting people who don't vote for you. 

 

giphy.gif

Edited by mchookem

The massive failure in American healthcare that is looming also just might bring about the support needed for a single payer system. Probably not, but maybe.

3 minutes ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

I don't see that as what he's advocating for. The vote to take healthcare away has already passed, with no democrats voting for it. This is the democrats keeping the government closed in a last-gasp effort to keep the republicans from suffering from their own bill. It would be awesome if it ends up working, but if the democrats end up caving so government workers can start getting paid again and Federal projects stop getting cancelled, that doesn't make it their fault that millions of people get the loss in healthcare that they voted for.

Fascists have the majority. Voting to bail out fascists is collaboration. He's advocating for the Democrats to be a complicit, controlled opposition. Fuck that. 

10 minutes ago, F250 said:

Is Donkey Cigars showing his ass again?

Yes.

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Fascists have the majority. Voting to bail out fascists is collaboration. He's advocating for the Democrats to be a complicit, controlled opposition. Fuck that. 

Okay Bolverk, then let's scrap that political gambit.

In your mind, genuinely curious, let's pretend you are the leader here-- how do you get us out of this shutdown? What has to happen in you opinion? Or maybe you don't have one and that's okay too as there doesn't seem, as of today, to be any good (and realistic, politically speaking) options (which was the impetus of my OP today).

Edited by Vegas64

3 minutes ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

The massive failure in American healthcare that is looming also just might bring about the support needed for a single payer system. Probably not, but maybe.

Nothing short of a complete collapse can precipitate any change.

Republicans have no ideas other than [checks notes] kicking people off insurance 🤷‍♂️

Democrats trying just gets them voted out of office. 
So what’s the incentive?

Oh, and while I am on one hand on the Dems' side on this (because they need to put up a fight on SOMETHING).....I do tend to agree that total, unbearable pain is the only thing that will change anything.  We need to make sure the messaging is out there, so that enough of the people know who to blame when they lose their healthcare, lose their jobs, can't afford a home or groceries or christmas presents, etc.  But let them get burned.  Badly.   Horrifically.  Because that's the only way most of us learn.

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Just now, Vegas64 said:

Okay Bolverk, then let's scrap that political gambit.

In your mind, genuinely curious, let's pretend you are the leader here-- how do you get us out of this shutdown? What has to happen in you opinion? Or maybe you don't have one and that's okay too as there doesn't seem, as of today, to be any good options (which was the impetus of my OP today).

Stand firm and oppose this fascist regime on all fronts.

You should be old enough to recall that when Obama was first elected, Mitch McConnell said, "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." While I strongly disagree with McConnell on just about everything he stands for politically, he understands the nature of opposition. Obstruction on all fronts. That is a lesson the Democratic Party needs to learn.

At this point, anything less would be a display of complicity, like Vichy France-type collaboration.

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, and while I am on one hand on the Dems' side on this (because they need to put up a fight on SOMETHING).....I do tend to agree that total, unbearable pain is the only thing that will change anything.  We need to make sure the messaging is out there, so that enough of the people know who to blame when they lose their healthcare, lose their jobs, can't afford a home or groceries or christmas presents, etc.  But let them get burned.  Badly.   Horrifically.  Because that's the only way most of us learn.

Counterpoints:

Quote

"Everyone should be able to access health care" is literally the only thing all Democrats agree on.

Quote

Almost 5 million Texans voted against Trump. I am absolutely positive a good chunk of that (well over a million) is on ACA. Go fuck yourself.

Quote

From a pure politics standpoint it’s even a stupid stance. There are Dems in red states. They’re likely to get primaried if they fuck over their own, and they’re open to general losses if the national party no longer fights for the folks in red states, too. 

Quote

You're advocating for millions to lose their health care and for people to die to score cheap political points. Fuck. You.

Quote

Because, dumbass, there are millions of citizens in both fascist-controlled and democracy-loving states who are on it, and access to healthcare is literally a matter of life and death. Would you vote for something, knowing that the deaths of an untold number could be directly tied to that decision?

 

6 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

Nothing short of a complete collapse can precipitate any change.

Republicans have no ideas other than [checks notes] kicking people off insurance 🤷‍♂️

Democrats trying just gets them voted out of office. 
So what’s the incentive?

Well, for people who live in cities with populations under 100k, that complete collapse seems to be coming. It's going to be hard to have a baby when the hospital is 2 hours away.

7 minutes ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

I don't see that as what he's advocating for. The vote to take healthcare away has already passed, with no democrats voting for it. This is the democrats keeping the government closed in a last-gasp effort to keep the republicans from suffering from their own bill. It would be awesome if it ends up working, but if the democrats end up caving so government workers can start getting paid again and Federal projects stop getting cancelled, that doesn't make it their fault that millions of people get the loss in healthcare that they voted for.

I think you underestimate the stupidity of the average American voter.  I fear that once they Democrats touched this thing focusing on the healthcare issue, they opened themselves up for the argument that they partially own it (which the Rs will absolutely push next fall).  At this point, I think the Dems have to go all in and make the Republicans eliminate the filibuster and cram this thing through.  That would be awful for the folks relying on the subsidies, but would allow (1) the Dems to look like they were actually fighting for everyone and (2) MAGA to finally touch the stove and feel the pain.  That's why the Republicans are absolutely not going to make that move.   Even if the Rs actually concede, the Dems will not benefit much, if at all - see opening premise.  Politically, I think tying this to healthcare was a stupid move; morally right, but stupid if they're trying to stop the country's march to authoritarianism.

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

Stand firm and oppose this fascist regime on all fronts.

You should be old enough to recall that when Obama was first elected, Mitch McConnell said, "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." While I strongly disagree with McConnell on just about everything he stands for politically, he understands the nature of opposition. Obstruction on all fronts. That is a lesson the Democratic Party needs to learn.

At this point, anything less would be a display of complicity, like Vichy France-type collaboration.

Thanks for this. It's like the old "the winning move is to not play at all", which I guess makes sense.

I know it doesn't feel like it right now but you have to think AT SOME POINT in a shut down there will be pain from not having a government installed and working. And when that comes, it's 100% on the R's. That's the plan. I like it, if it works out that way.

Just now, Vegas64 said:

Counterpoints:

And I think I agree with these.  There is no way for society to experience the necessary level of pain without ALL of us experiencing that pain.  That's the absolute idiocy of the approach of the GQP and its supporters.  They are standing in the boat that we all occupy, shooting holes in the hull as fast as they can, and then laughing as half of us look on in horror and say "you're sinking a boat with ALL OF US in it!"  And all they can say is "suck it libs, more tears!"

Fuck it.  Let it sink.  There's no path forward that doesn't involve that, and a lot of incredibly harmed and, yes, dead, Americans.  That's where we are.  There's no getting off this road.

Just now, Vegas64 said:

Thanks for this. It's like the old "the winning move is to not play at all", which I guess makes sense.

I know it doesn't feel like it right now but you have to think AT SOME POINT in a shut down there will be pain from not having a government installed and working. And when that comes, it's 100% on the R's. That's the plan. I like it, if it works out that way.

Correct. Force the Republicans' hand to go nuclear. Make them the sole owners of the pain that is coming.

Just now, Brisketexan said:

And I think I agree with these.  There is no way for society to experience the necessary level of pain without ALL of us experiencing that pain.  That's the absolute idiocy of the approach of the GQP and its supporters.  They are standing in the boat that we all occupy, shooting holes in the hull as fast as they can, and then laughing as half of us look on in horror and say "you're sinking a boat with ALL OF US in it!"  And all they can say is "suck it libs, more tears!"

Fuck it.  Let it sink.  There's no path forward that doesn't involve that, and a lot of incredibly harmed and, yes, dead, Americans.  That's where we are.  There's no getting off this road.

Politically, It's like the parable of Solomon's baby.

We aren't willing to kill the baby but the R's are willing to kill a baby.

I think the republicans probably take this opportunity to fund healthcare and run a massive budget deficit that they can blame on the democrats. Meanwhile, their voters will continue to vote for them because nothing actually happened to them.

Just now, Vegas64 said:

Politically, It's like the parable of Solomon's baby.

We aren't willing to kill the baby but the R's are willing to kill a baby.

What too many of us have not accepted yet is that the baby is already doomed.  There's no saving it.  So, embrace the horror.  Ultimately, horrific pain is our only ally.

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There's no getting off this road.

Wait, I thought it was a boat?

18 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Okay Bolverk, then let's scrap that political gambit.

In your mind, genuinely curious, let's pretend you are the leader here-- how do you get us out of this shutdown? What has to happen in you opinion? Or maybe you don't have one and that's okay too as there doesn't seem, as of today, to be any good (and realistic, politically speaking) options (which was the impetus of my OP today).

 

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Correct. Force the Republicans' hand to go nuclear. Make them the sole owners of the pain that is coming.

He answered, but this is the answer. They have the house, Senate majorities and they have the sitting president. If they can't make a functional government with those pieces we will wait until the election and they won't get another chance. 

So a baby, in a boat, on a road walks into a bar with a poodle under one arm and a 5 lb. salami under the other arm.

 

The baby sets the poodle on the bar, and the bartender says, I guess you won't be needing a drink.

 

And the baby says, . . . . 

Edited by dcbc

Just now, dcbc said:

So a baby, in a boat, on a road walks into a bar with a poodle under one arm and a 5 lb. salami under the other arm. 

 

The bartender says, I guess you won't be having a drink.

 

And the baby says, . . . . 

Not with these premiums I'm having to pay now!

38 minutes ago, F250 said:

Is Donkey Cigars showing his ass again?

I'll give him some credit. He lasted longer with this username than any of the others.

11 minutes ago, The Hot Dog Buffet said:

Well, for people who live in cities with populations under 100k, that complete collapse seems to be coming. It's going to be hard to have a baby when the hospital is 2 hours away.


I’m glad we haven’t dismantled women’s healthcare in the name of ‘protecting life’

2 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

I'll give him some credit. He lasted longer with this username than any of the others.

Some of you are going to be sorely disappointed one day when we are in the same room at the same time. Heck, throw in GRUhon and there wil be 3 of us!

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3 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Some of you are going to be sorely disappointed one day when we are in the same room at the same time. Heck, throw in GRUhon and there wil be 3 of us!

LOwkeyhurt @lOwkeyhurt U ever do inside jokes with with yourself or or is  that schizophrenia

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Bear in mind that:

  • Johnson continues to refuse to allow a duly elected Democrat from Arizona to take her seat and
  • Abbott refuses to hold an election for another one.

Republican legislatures across the country are:

  • Redistricting mid-decade to gerrymander to make their state delegations to Congress less representative of the will of the people and
  • Enacting (or have enacted) multiple additional schemes to disenfranchise marginalized communities.

The only morally, ethically, or politically correct response to their anti-democratic moves is to oppose and obstruct on all fronts.

I'm just disappointed that animal tobacco gave up with trying new combos and just started adding a number to the end of animal tobacco. We never even got Camel Camel!

9 minutes ago, Covri said:

I'm just disappointed that animal tobacco gave up with trying new combos and just started adding a number to the end of animal tobacco. We never even got Camel Camel!

Armadillo Benson&Hedges   FTW.

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1 hour ago, Captainant said:

this is quite literally unconstitutional, so if you're cool with tearing that document up it's all a bit of a moot point. Congress controls taxation and spending. In the constitution, at least.

It's interesting that the two most important documents in human history, per about 100 million Americans, are the Bible and the Constitution, and they don't know or care what's in either one.

50 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What too many of us have not accepted yet is that the baby is already doomed.  There's no saving it.  So, embrace the horror.  Ultimately, horrific pain is our only ally.

image.jpeg.637ae03d3db2612a2b61ebb95320ac3b.jpeg

6 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

It's interesting that the two most important documents in human history, per about 100 million Americans, are the Bible and the Constitution, and they don't know or care what's in either one.

They care about one major thing in both: 2A and Israelites being in a geographic location for cloud Jesus to plant his flag. Everything is open for their unique interpretation. Bonus points if cloud Jesus has a AK-47 when he gets down here, which would be one of their unique interpretations. 

28 minutes ago, Dr. Teeth said:

They care about one major thing in both: 2A and Israelites being in a geographic location for cloud Jesus to plant his flag. Everything is open for their unique interpretation. Bonus points if cloud Jesus has a AK-47 AR-15/M16 when he gets down here, which would be one of their unique interpretations. 

Fixed it.

1 hour ago, immamac said:

I don't think Vegas is animal tobacco. 

I don't either. Animal tobacco was Chrispy and he tried rearing his head again recently.

46 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't either. Animal tobacco was Chrispy and he tried rearing his head again recently.

Yeah he is around, just haven't seen him in here much

2 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

Some of you are going to be sorely disappointed one day when we are in the same room at the same time. Heck, throw in GRUhon and there wil be 3 of us!

OK Chrispy

2 hours ago, immamac said:

I don't think Vegas is animal tobacco. 

Swam?

2 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

Some of you are going to be sorely disappointed one day when we are in the same room at the same time. Heck, throw in GRUhon and there wil be 3 of us!

I don't know, man. I think my family would splurge for a nicer psychiatric institution than yours.

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