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#68051
2 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Is this news? I thought this was a known issue? I must have read this several dozen times when they were being donated.

I did read the article. Sounds like they were desperate for firepower, and so used them despite their terrible fit for the role. BTW, the article was written a couple of weeks ago.

One thing about those vaunted 6 Finnish engineering vehicles on the Leopard 2 chassis. The reason the Finnish donated them is because they didn't work during testing. The Finns said it was because of the rocky soil in Finland, but it may have been they just don't work period. 

The truth is the Ukrainians aren't ideally kitted out to fight this counter offensive, but they're doing it anyway. And, they're having successes. 

My biggest concern above all others is Zaluzhnyi talking about the lack of artillery shells in that recent Washington Post article. They're not getting F-16s anytime soon. Who knows when they'll get cluster munitions or ATAMCS. But for goodness sakes scrape together everything possible to get them artillery shells. Artillery shells and mobile air defense. Oh, and thank you thank you thank you to the Brits for supplying the Storm Shadows. Holy shit what a difference those have made. 

Yep, I believe it's that they tried to use them that way because they lack the number of tanks really needed for the offensive. They've basically been given a bunch of stuff cobbled together that may or may not actually suit what they need.

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  • AUS-97HORN
    AUS-97HORN

    For the love of Christ woman,  stop posting the same fucking thing every 20 mins just to make your neurotic self feel better.     Bring something useful to the thread other than your inane babbli

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#68054
34 minutes ago, RPM said:

I stand corrected. They turned 'em down flat.

 

They didn't turn them down "flat", they went with converted tank chassis that better fit their predicted future urban battle needs. The Bradleys are great, combat proven, and near/at top of their class compared to similar Western platforms ie Warrior, CV90, Marder, etc.

#68055
4 minutes ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

They didn't turn them down "flat", they went with converted tank chassis that better fit their predicted future urban battle needs.

So what you're saying is they rejected them outright.

#68056

Just one last thing on the initial production run of the Bradley to consider.  It cost us $25 billion for the Apollo moon program.  The GAO reports that the initial design and production cost $5.7 billion, which is misleading because the pentagon has a general development slush fund that was also tapped into for it.  So even if you took it at face value, the initial cost for 6k of these was one fifth the entire moon program (it was considerably more than that).  

 

 

#68057
Russian propagandists are likely conducting an information campaign to destroy #WagnerGroup’s reputation as a uniquely effective fighting force in support of the Russian MoD's effort to dismantle #Wagner & integrate its former fighters into MoD structures. https://t.co/sp4I2xN0ZK https://t.co/MZM0MoP7TS

 

Which will collapse first?

 

#68059
4 hours ago, RPM said:

image.jpeg.168e7c130f02664aa4865b7d34ecef83.jpeg

Ask the Israelis why they had to redesign them before they would accept them. It will punch holes in your theory.

Israel redesigns everything for their specific requirements. 

Edited by Dahobbs

#68060
2 hours ago, RPM said:

I stand corrected. They turned 'em down flat.

Israel has specific requirements based upon their war doctrine. It has nothing to do with the system being a bad system. Israel has modified the f-16, the f-35, the f-15, and literally every weapon system we have ever provided them. 

#68061
3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Israel has specific requirements based upon their war doctrine.

a/k/a shit's gotta work, yo.

#68062
Just now, RPM said:

a/k/a shit's gotta work, yo.

Yeah, the f-15, the most successful fighter ever, is obviously a horrible aircraft because Israel heavily modified it. This is stupid.

#68064
2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, the f-15, the most successful fighter ever, is obviously a horrible aircraft because Israel heavily modified it. This is stupid.

Israel bought them, not BFVs. You're proving my point. F-15's work. They work real good, always have.

Edited by RPM

#68065
1 minute ago, RPM said:

Israel bought them, not BFVs. You're proving my point. F-15's work. They work real good, always have.

You keeping flipping. Your original post was that modifying a weapon system means it is bad.

Israel has unique requirements. Not every weapon system is going to work for them. Plus, Israel wanted to build up their domestic manufacturing. Israel also rejected the Abrams. I guess that means it is a bad tank. Again, your argument is stupid. 

#68066
9 hours ago, butthurt said:

I'm pretty sure that this is a reposted video but fuck it. 

 

well i'm a moron for a variety of reasons but today I learned they are pronounced HIGH-mars and VOGner as opposed to him-ars and wag-ner. 

#68067

The details of that encounter between the US and Wagner in 2018 are so fucking satisfying

#68069
3 minutes ago, achooloco said:

well i'm a moron for a variety of reasons but today I learned they are pronounced HIGH-mars and VOGner as opposed to him-ars and wag-ner. 

Yeah. Russian doesn't really have a 'w' sound. That's why it was always funny to me that Chekov in Star Trek pronounced all 'v's as 'w's (e.g., nuclear wessels). 

#68070
10 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You keeping flipping. Your original post was that modifying a weapon system means it is bad.

No, I said people won't buy a shitty product.

The Homer - Wikisimpsons, the Simpsons Wiki

But, if you throw enough money at it, you can turn finally a fast troop carrier into an IFV.

The Bradley worked against Saddam. He had 70's Soviet shit.

I wonder what we would have come up with if we had just designed 2 different vehicles.

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#68071
17 minutes ago, RPM said:

The Bradley worked against Saddam. He had 70's Soviet shit.

Russian MoD: 

Awkward Kid GIF

#68072

Maybe we can all agree the Bradley was a sub standard, over priced machine in its early iterations. And it has largely redeemed itself since then?  Albeit with a bunch more money poured in, and against crappy opponents? 

#68073
7 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Maybe we can all agree the Bradley was a sub standard, over priced machine in its early iterations. And it has largely redeemed itself since then?  Albeit with a bunch more money poured in, and against crappy opponents? 

245ADFA8-1139-484B-8D0D-3596D8D904F6.gif.cd6a17be8966029d201fb3b920d1ee64.gif

  • Popular Post
#68074
Attention unwanted guests. A travel advisory is in effect this summer.

 

#68075
1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah. Russian doesn't really have a 'w' sound. That's why it was always funny to me that Chekov in Star Trek pronounced all 'v's as 'w's (e.g., nuclear wessels). 

Wagner is German, as in Richard Wagner, the famous composer. Not Russian. Not saying anything about Russian’s lack of a ‘w’ sound, but it’s not really the culprit in this case. 

#68076
1 hour ago, Parliament said:

Maybe we can all agree the Bradley was a sub standard, over priced machine in its early iterations. And it has largely redeemed itself since then?  Albeit with a bunch more money poured in, and against crappy opponents? 

I can't disagree with that assessment as long as we add TOW missiles, because that's the only thing that saves it's ass and you got 2 shots.

Edited by RPM

#68077
12 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Wagner is German, as in Richard Wagner, the famous composer. Not Russian. Not saying anything about Russian’s lack of a ‘w’ sound, but it’s not really the culprit in this case. 

I'm aware. Just providing a related fun fact. 

#68079
1 hour ago, Parliament said:

Maybe we can all agree the Bradley was a sub standard, over priced machine in its early iterations. And it has largely redeemed itself since then?  Albeit with a bunch more money poured in, and against crappy opponents? 

Seems to me that every piece of equipment goes through a field trial and every new piece to show up on the field takes years to successfully figure out how to properly implement it as part of the military assets.   The M16 and the Sherman M4 (particularly at Kasserine Pass), all needed some time to be modified or tactically adapted to be effective.    

 

 

#68080
3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Seems to me that every piece of equipment goes through a field trial and every new piece to show up on the field takes years to successfully figure out how to properly implement it as part of the military assets.   The M16 and the Sherman M4 (particularly at Kasserine Pass), all needed some time to be modified or tactically adapted to be effective.    

 

 

This.  As military systems become increasingly complex and new technologies are incorporated, it is almost impossible for new systems to be ready "out of the box".  The Bradley was particularly a victim of being expected to fill too many different roles.  Most of the critics expected it to essentially be a main battle tank that carried troops, and that is not what it was proposed to do. 

Even if the expectations for the Bradley had been kept to the basic premise of the system, there would still have been a period of maturation.  For example, as great as the F-15 is, we are flying and fighting C, D, and E models, not the original system.  The current F-18s are the E and F models, and significantly larger than the original models.  Systems inevitably mature and develop.  That doesn't make the original systems bad.

#68081

347397973_615503070762775_5497720955649733420_n.thumb.png.a894e9735546785d055c117bcc35cfb0.png

⚡️Over the past 24 hours, the loss of the enemy in killed and wounded in the Taurida direction amounted to almost two companies.This was announced by the commander of the operational-strategic group of troops "Tavria" Oleksandr Tarnavskyi.Also destroyed were: a tank, an MT-12…

 

#68082

LOL

Meanwhile in Russia: just like Vladimir Solovyov, head of RT Margarita Simonyan asserted that she realized since spring that Yevgeny Prigozhin had been plotting a coup. https://t.co/awvoKLDHrC

you did not you stupid bitch lol

#68083

"In honor of Falcon 9 successful launch. A Russian BTR-82 decided to go into the troposphere too."

 

#68084
3 hours ago, RPM said:

Israel bought them, not BFVs. You're proving my point. F-15's work. They work real good, always have.

So do Galil's. Loved mine. 

Even have a bottle opener on them if you get the one with the bipod. 

Damn, I want a Galil now. 

#68085
that moment when ru telegram states that a M113 was able to flank you... and nobody noticed
I love how some russian is sitting in a cold, wet trench and presumably just making live posts about the battle going on around him on telegram..."The M113 just flanked us and is now shooting directly at us. I am shooting back with one arm because I need my subscriber base to…

 

Edited by Rimbo

#68086
Russian channel Rybar on the situation near Robotyne:➡️ AFU has broken through a line of defense on the left flank of Robotyne➡️ AFU advanced 300m ➡️ RU units retook 150m and fighting ongoing

 

#68087
18 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

This.  As military systems become increasingly complex and new technologies are incorporated, it is almost impossible for new systems to be ready "out of the box".  The Bradley was particularly a victim of being expected to fill too many different roles.  Most of the critics expected it to essentially be a main battle tank that carried troops, and that is not what it was proposed to do. 

Even if the expectations for the Bradley had been kept to the basic premise of the system, there would still have been a period of maturation.  For example, as great as the F-15 is, we are flying and fighting C, D, and E models, not the original system.  The current F-18s are the E and F models, and significantly larger than the original models.  Systems inevitably mature and develop.  That doesn't make the original systems bad.

Air Force and Army just need to watch how the Navy does it. The Gerald Ford has been a piece of cake. Seamless development and deployment schedule. Seamless, I say. 

#68088
3 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah. Russian doesn't really have a 'w' sound. That's why it was always funny to me that Chekov in Star Trek pronounced all 'v's as 'w's (e.g., nuclear wessels). 

I hear that happen fairly frequently with native Russian speakers. They aren’t used to the “w” sound and practice a lot and get reminded to use it. And then they end up over correcting and putting it where it doesn’t belong.

The “w” is not a super common sound worldwide. 

#68089
48 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Seems to me that every piece of equipment goes through a field trial and every new piece to show up on the field takes years to successfully figure out how to properly implement it as part of the military assets.   The M16 and the Sherman M4 (particularly at Kasserine Pass), all needed some time to be modified or tactically adapted to be effective.    

 

 

Hell, the P51 mustang was not a great plane for it's first few years of life until the right engine got installed

  • Popular Post
#68090
Lesson: Shells are not effective hammers 😕#Ukraine #Russia #UkraineWillWin #RussiaIsLosing

 

#68091
8 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Air Force and Army just need to watch how the Navy does it. The Gerald Ford has been a piece of cake. Seamless development and deployment schedule. Seamless, I say. 

Probably because there was no math

#68092
2 minutes ago, The Dog said:
Lesson: Shells are not effective hammers 😕#Ukraine #Russia #UkraineWillWin #RussiaIsLosing

 

There was a lot of Darwinism at work there. The person doing the hammering with the shell. The person in the background watching. The person doing the filming.

And then someone had to grab the phone out of the remains of those three and then upload it for views. What a time to be alive. Unlike those guys.

#68093
8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The “w” is not a super common sound worldwide. 

Counterpoint: It's in the two most commonly spoken languages in the world, English and Mandarin, making it a very super common sound.

#68094
23 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Seems to me that every piece of equipment goes through a field trial and every new piece to show up on the field takes years to successfully figure out how to properly implement it as part of the military assets.   The M16 and the Sherman M4 (particularly at Kasserine Pass), all needed some time to be modified or tactically adapted to be effective.    

 

 

The Kasserine pass debacle can be attributed mostly to bad leadership and tactical strategy.  The fact that some idiots drove a much smaller number of Shermans straight into the face of German 88 guns and tigers (with the latter entrenched and notified by air in advance the allies were coming) who could blast them from long distance in the flat desert terrain was pure, almost suicidal stupidity.

I will grant you that they did learn the need for better ammo storage, and the so-called “wet storage“ solution practically eliminated the problem of tanks brewing up.  And to your point about modifications, the first Shermans did not have gun sights with magnification, something the Germans had that helped them in their long distance accuracy. 

It has always annoyed me that Sherman tank ammunition had been invented that could have dramatically increased the kill power of the 76 mm cannon, but US ordinance decided not  to make those vastly improved anti-armor shells available to the tankers who were fighting.  

Months before the war was over, they finally delivered a limited amount of the tungsten armor piercing ammunition to take crews, generally giving them one shell a month to each tank. That improved AP ammo could punch a hole in a panther’ mantlet at 1000 yards. Yet for most of the war Shermans were denied the ammo that would have greatly increased their ability to take out German armor. Some bureaucrat making a decision 

And again to your point about modifications, one issue was that Shermans at Kasserine had a too-short 75 mm cannon - which drastically reduced velocity at distance.  So they went with the 76 mm cannon, which arrived in late 44.  Once again, the idiots in ordinance decided the longer barrel might be a problem if the tank went down hill, and lopped 15 inches off the new longer barrel, again degrading it’s antitank performance.    The picture below shows the length of the original 76 barrel compared to the 75, the white line being the end of the 75 barrel. 

FF726DFD-08D0-4322-ACB1-68D2E3AB890A.thumb.jpeg.2ba5a0c23d776faff400e21bdb729c3f.jpeg

 

Still, even with a too-short barrel and shitty ammo, you simply do not drive toward entrenched 88s without cover of any kind.  Especially when they knew you were coming, with gun ranges well sighted in, and expect to have a pleasant outcome. 

Stupidity in tactics will almost always result in disaster. 

#68095
4 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Stupidity in tactics will almost always result in disaster. 

Like using AMX-10s in frontline assaults. 

#68096
8 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

The Kasserine pass debacle can be attributed mostly to bad leadership and tactical strategy.  The fact that some idiots drove a much smaller number of Shermans straight into the face of German 88 guns and tigers (with the latter entrenched and notified by air in advance the allies were coming) who could blast them from long distance in the flat desert terrain was pure, almost suicidal stupidity

So Fredendall didn’t read Rommel’s book?

#68097
Pro-Russian sources confirm that all attempts to dislodge the Ukrainian troops from the Antonovsky bridgehead failed.They also admit that the situation is becoming a serious concern.#Ukraine #Kherson #Counteroffensive— (((Tendar))) (@Tendar)

 

Despite the encouraging statements by Russian officials, the Antonovsky Bridge foothold is causing a very palpable concern among the Russians. All day yesterday they discussed the footage of Russian soldiers ending up under a heavy barrage while attempting to moor on the Dnieper…

 

Despite the encouraging statements by Russian officials, the Antonovsky Bridge foothold is causing a very palpable concern among the Russians. All day yesterday they discussed the footage of Russian soldiers ending up under a heavy barrage while attempting to moor on the Dnieper in a small boat. This was followed by mass calls to find boats all across Russia and bring them in. 

Today, even Girkin who previously dismissed the perspectives of such a foothold, came out with a very long post saying Russians are unable to "dislodge" the Ukrainian defence forces (full post here t.me/strelkovii/5847, here t.me/strelkovii/5848 and here t.me/strelkovii/5849).

Screenshot_20230702-160256_Twitter.thumb.jpg.1f1838f57171f984199756b84c2c1fb6.jpg

#68098
1/ Russian front-line hospitals are experiencing acute shortages of personnel and supplies. Only officers are reportedly evacuated to Russia, with ordinary soldiers being treated without anaesthesia or medications. Volunteers are providing most of the medical supplies. ⬇️

 

#68099
1 hour ago, Rimbo said:
Russian channel Rybar on the situation near Robotyne:➡️ AFU has broken through a line of defense on the left flank of Robotyne➡️ AFU advanced 300m ➡️ RU units retook 150m and fighting ongoing

 

Ukrainian forces have made a significant advance towards the town of Robotyne capturing a key defensive trench line and advancing beyond it heavy fighting continues into the night. Russian forces have retreated to their two other main defensive lines just north of the town.

 

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