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#68501
1 hour ago, locodos said:

First of all, I agree.

But the following needs to be considered:

  • If you don't believe the US will be paying for cleanup and reconstruction in Ukraine I think you are fooling yourself.  - It's in our best interests to do so, but that's going to be a hard sell to some Americans and demining will be an expensive and long process.
  • The US also needs to help Ukraine keep international support for their cause, immediately handing over weapons that have PROVEN to hurt civilians erodes that support.
  • America's military power is not seen as a universal force for good that most Americans think it is.  American weapons doing damage and killing kids and farmers for 20 years won't help that image at all.  It won't matter that we supplied them as part of a request from their own people to the families of dead children.  Rockeye is controversial for a reason.  Handing it over has risk to US reputation / soft power.

That said, it looks like after careful consideration we are moving forward.  I applaud the decision and that it was NOT made lightly.

This debate is a great reminder that we (the collective West) cannot remember or comprehend being in a war that we can’t afford to lose.  The cost of cleanup (for Ukraine) has no meaning if they lose this war. And for us, it only has meaning if they win. Because we aren’t going to help Russia clear mines in their new colony. 

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  • AUS-97HORN
    AUS-97HORN

    For the love of Christ woman,  stop posting the same fucking thing every 20 mins just to make your neurotic self feel better.     Bring something useful to the thread other than your inane babbli

  • Im_smarter_then_you
    Im_smarter_then_you

  • InkaUtexas
    InkaUtexas

    I volunteered today. Log/Admin role to replace people for 30-60 days. The operation is in the west, or should the Orcs win will be pulled back behind the NATO wall. Either way the humanitarian effort

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#68503
1 minute ago, Gatorubet said:

What makes this extremely annoying is the long running refrain of not enough 155 shells.   We had 1 million of them (albeit cluster) sitting in warehouses, waiting to be eventually destroyed. I understand the consequences to civilians from unexploded cluster ordinance, but I would rather side with Ukrainian de-mining risk than with the possibility of Russians destroying my entire civilization in a genocide. 

It is not even a serious choice when the survival of your country is compared to a “down side” of cleaning up after your country, in fact, survives. 

So what happens if the current lines harden and the Russians have a ready made stockpile of maimed and mangled children to parade in front of the world for the next 20 years all courtesy of American munitions?  

It's not like this war is guaranteed to be a slam-dunk win for either side.  It has to be considered/factored in.  There is a reason we are not all in and patrolling the skies over Ukraine.  Every action has a cost and it's best to think about it ahead of time.

#68505
3 minutes ago, locodos said:

So what happens if the current lines harden and the Russians have a ready made stockpile of maimed and mangled children to parade in front of the world for the next 20 years all courtesy of American munitions?  

If fighting genocide and rape rooms and torture chambers and stolen children and Russia indiscriminately bombing civilian homes, schools and hospitals isn’t enough reason, which all the world saw, then any rational discussion should not lead to condemnation for their use.   If an irrational discussion, ‘fuck ‘em. 

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#68506

More from Zelensky. I'm seriously considering attending an Austin ISD board meeting and insist they find a school to rename after him.

 

 

 

#68507
2 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

If fighting genocide and rape rooms and torture chambers and stolen children and Russia indiscriminately bombing civilian homes, schools and hospitals isn’t enough reason, which all the world saw, then any rational discussion should not lead to condemnation for their use.   If an irrational discussion, ‘fuck ‘em. 

The world has seen it.  Why then do you suppose German/French/Spanish/Italian/British/Poland/Sweden/Finland fighters haven't closed the skies over Ukraine and rained hell down on the Orcs?

Because there is a cost benefit equation.  Denying it exists is folly.

#68508

Captured Russian soldier said commanders were high on painkillers and gave 'nonsensical orders' like sending them out under mortar fire

  • A Russian soldier told CNN his commanders were high on painkillers and gave nonsensical orders.
  • Slava, who was captured by Ukraine, said this included soldiers being sent out under mortar fire.
  • He told CNN that he got only two weeks of basic training and Russian soldiers "had no morale."

A captured Russian soldier told CNN that his commanders in Ukraine were high on drugs and gave nonsensical orders that put their men's lives at risk.

The prisoner, identified as Slava, said his commanders would send soldiers out under mortar fire while high on their stock of painkillers.

Slava also described jumping over craters and body parts amid Ukrainian shelling, before being captured in a foxhole south of Bakhmut. It is not clear when this took place.

CNN interviewed Slava and two other Russian soldiers in the presence of Ukrainian soldiers.

The outlet said the captives did not appear to be speaking under duress, and that it did not use their real names to avoid "possible negative consequences upon their return to Russia" and to follow Red Cross guidelines on reporting about prisoners of war.

Slava and Anton, another soldier, said they had just two weeks of basic training before they were deployed.

"We had no morale," Slava added.

Multiple reports have pointed to low morale among Russian troops, including letters left behind by fleeing Russians detailing "moral exhaustion" and "worsening" health.

Russian soldiers have also previously complained about the competence of their commanders.

Both Slava and Anton, who were recruited out of prison, said that everything they had known about the war came from Russian media. Media in Russia is considered to be tightly controlled by President Vladimir Putin.

Anton also described how he planned to kill himself when Ukrainian soldiers reached him, as he expected to be either tortured or executed.

"I switched the rifle to single shot mode, and I thought I would shoot myself. But I couldn't," he told CNN.

Read the original article on Business Insider

#68509
27 minutes ago, locodos said:

So what happens if the current lines harden and the Russians have a ready made stockpile of maimed and mangled children to parade in front of the world for the next 20 years all courtesy of American munitions?  

It's not like this war is guaranteed to be a slam-dunk win for either side.  It has to be considered/factored in.  There is a reason we are not all in and patrolling the skies over Ukraine.  Every action has a cost and it's best to think about it ahead of time.

Russia has been using cluster munitions since this thing started.

#68510
⚡️The House of Representatives of the Netherlands, the lower house of the country's parliament, recognized the famine of 1932-1933 as a genocide of the Ukrainian people, – President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy says.About drones in the warhttps://t.co/10llFgeVcX👉 Follow…
⚡️Germany's budget committee approved the purchase of munitions for 783.3 million euros: Germany will transfer part of them to Ukraine, – Europäische Sicherheit und Technik.Ammunition is intended for the PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer, the Puma infantry fighting vehicle, the…

Edited by MillerEP

#68511
13 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

Russia has been using cluster munitions since this thing started.

  1. Fuck the Russians
  2. and ?

 

#68512

 

⚡️Germany announced the transfer of a new package of military aid to Ukraine:

 

⚡️“We will create a Ukraine-NATO council, I expect that #Ukraine will eventually become a member of the alliance,” #NATO Secretary General Jens #Stoltenberg said.Stoltenberg added that at the summit in Vilnius, NATO leaders will approve a multi-year support package for Ukraine.

 

#68514
⚡️The House of Representatives of the Netherlands, the lower house of the country's parliament, recognized the famine of 1932-1933 as a genocide of the Ukrainian people, – President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy says.About drones in the warhttps://t.co/10llFgeVcX👉 Follow…
Another batch of Italian 155-mm M109L howitzers is being prepared for shipment to Ukraine

 

#68516
5 minutes ago, locodos said:
  1. Fuck the Russians
  2. and ?

 

 

And it's time to stop self-deterring. Like for like imo. You use cluster bombs, we use cluster bombs. Use ballistic missiles, we do too, etc.

Edited by MagicSoccerSpray

#68517
1 minute ago, AUS-97HORN said:

2. And stop fucking being the devils advocate on this molehill man.

 

 

 

Wat?   I said I agreed with the decision, but that I was glad it was deliberated.   

Do you think the extent and rigor of American foreign policy should be "YOLO bitches!"?

If so, yeah, I'm ready to debate that point.

#68518
7 minutes ago, locodos said:
  1. Fuck the Russians
  2. and ?

 

My point is that any maimed and mutilated Ukrainian child could just as easily have been maimed and mutilated by a russian cluster munition than an American munition. The russians are going to do that anyway, no matter if America sends more weapons, so you might as well continue helping Ukraine defeat the russians right now rather than worry about some hypothetical argument that may/may not come after the war is over.

#68519
8 minutes ago, statsman said:

The secretive security force behind Evan Gershkovich’s arrest is also believed responsible for other strange incidents involving Americans, including the mysterious death of a diplomat’s dog.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fsb-evan-gershkovich-russia-security-force-dkro-e9cf9a49?st=kn6abdvenzbwfqw&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

 

source.gif

#68520
6 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

My point is that any maimed and mutilated Ukrainian child could just as easily have been maimed and mutilated by a russian cluster munition than an American munition. The russians are going to do that anyway, no matter if America sends more weapons, so you might as well continue helping Ukraine defeat the russians right now rather than worry about some hypothetical argument that may/may not come after the war is over.

Fair enough.  I just don't think we should let Russia behavior set our moral standards, which is what I thought you were getting at.

anyways here's some Russians having a bad short day

 

#68521
18 minutes ago, statsman said:

The secretive security force behind Evan Gershkovich’s arrest is also believed responsible for other strange incidents involving Americans, including the mysterious death of a diplomat’s dog.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fsb-evan-gershkovich-russia-security-force-dkro-e9cf9a49?st=kn6abdvenzbwfqw&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

 

This quote is very true:

“They’re very, very smart on the America target. They’ve been doing this a long time. They know us extremely well,” said Dan Hoffman, a former Central Intelligence Agency station chief in Moscow, about DKRO. “They do their job extremely well, they’re ruthless about doing their job, and they’re not constrained by any resources.”

 

A woman I know pretty dang well (we went to high school together & were FWBs for a while), who worked at the American embassy in Moscow in the 2008-2009 timeframe (she's now at the one in Belgrade), told me when she got back for a summer break she experienced being followed and suspected her flat had been broken into at least once. She said it was a really creepy and vulnerable feeling.

#68522
⚡️Slovakia will transfer 16 Zuzana-2 self-propelled guns to Ukraine and set up joint production of howitzers.This was announced by the President of Slovakia, Zuzana Caputova."We will jointly develop a new type of howitzers, joint production of ammunition will begin, and our…
Volodymyr Zelenskyy arrived in #Turkey, where he will meet with President ErdoganThe agenda of the talks includes "coordination of positions on the 'peace formula', the NATO summit, security guarantees and the grain initiative," as well as the reconstruction of #Ukraine and…

 

#68523
▪️ AIM-7 air defense missiles;▪️ Stinger, Javelin;▪️ 31 155-mm howitzers;▪️ 105-mm and 155-mm artillery shells, including DPICM;▪️ tube-launched missiles, Penguin unmanned aerial systems and explosive munitions;
▪️ demining equipment, spare parts, small arms and 28 million cartridges for them;▪️ 27 tactical vehicles for lifting equipment;▪️10 tactical vehicles for towing and transporting equipment;

 

#68524
7 minutes ago, MillerEP said:
▪️ AIM-7 air defense missiles;▪️ Stinger, Javelin;▪️ 31 155-mm howitzers;▪️ 105-mm and 155-mm artillery shells, including DPICM;▪️ tube-launched missiles, Penguin unmanned aerial systems and explosive munitions;
▪️ demining equipment, spare parts, small arms and 28 million cartridges for them;▪️ 27 tactical vehicles for lifting equipment;▪️10 tactical vehicles for towing and transporting equipment;

 

Additional HIMARS ammunition= ATACMS?

#68528
1 hour ago, locodos said:

The world has seen it.  Why then do you suppose German/French/Spanish/Italian/British/Poland/Sweden/Finland fighters haven't closed the skies over Ukraine and rained hell down on the Orcs?

Because there is a cost benefit equation.  Denying it exists is folly.

0E65DDB1-45C1-48F9-97B3-5DD39F16CC82.gif.ec0ae3953eb7916537d25baf5f3187b7.gif

i hear ya on cost-benefit Loco. 

I was merely answering your “what do we say for 20 years when kids get hurt when fronts stabilize?” question - not refuting a cost-benefit reality. 

As to closing skies w/ NATO birds, not starting WWIII is never a bad thing if you can help it.   I’m profound on stuff like that. 

#68529
1 hour ago, bolverk said:

 

This quote is very true:

“They’re very, very smart on the America target. They’ve been doing this a long time. They know us extremely well,” said Dan Hoffman, a former Central Intelligence Agency station chief in Moscow, about DKRO. “They do their job extremely well, they’re ruthless about doing their job, and they’re not constrained by any resources.”

 

A woman I know pretty dang well (we went to high school together & were FWBs for a while), who worked at the American embassy in Moscow in the 2008-2009 timeframe (she's now at the one in Belgrade), told me when she got back for a summer break she experienced being followed and suspected her flat had been broken into at least once. She said it was a really creepy and vulnerable feeling.

 Being watched and having personal space violated and entered is entry-level shenanigans that all manner of enemies and frenemies will allow themselves to do. 
 

The Russians operate on a different level of hostility and psychological games, including things like killed pets and fun pranks like posing as emergency services and telling people that children and spouses have been killed or maimed in traffic accidents. 
 

The world has awoken somewhat to what the Russian state is. But I cannot stress enough the utter lack of humanity on a personal level the security apparatus is capable of. 

#68530
1 hour ago, bolverk said:

 

This quote is very true:

“They’re very, very smart on the America target. They’ve been doing this a long time. They know us extremely well,” said Dan Hoffman, a former Central Intelligence Agency station chief in Moscow, about DKRO. “They do their job extremely well, they’re ruthless about doing their job, and they’re not constrained by any resources.”

 

A woman I know pretty dang well (we went to high school together & were FWBs for a while), who worked at the American embassy in Moscow in the 2008-2009 timeframe (she's now at the one in Belgrade), told me when she got back for a summer break she experienced being followed and suspected her flat had been broken into at least once. She said it was a really creepy and vulnerable feeling.

Pics not showing up. 

#68531
1 hour ago, locodos said:

Wat?   I said I agreed with the decision, but that I was glad it was deliberated.   

Do you think the extent and rigor of American foreign policy should be "YOLO bitches!"?

If so, yeah, I'm ready to debate that point.

Transferring conventional weapons to Ukraine is a qualitatively different kind of action than the direct engagement of NATO member state personnel against Russian armed forces and shouldn’t be compared if you’re honestly assessing this.

The concern over cluster munitions is about UKRAINIAN civilian casualties and UKRAINIAN ability to clean up after— making decisions for Ukrainians— and not about a Russian red line for their security. 

#68532
1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 Being watched and having personal space violated and entered is entry-level shenanigans that all manner of enemies and frenemies will allow themselves to do. 
 

The Russians operate on a different level of hostility and psychological games, including things like killed pets and fun pranks like posing as emergency services and telling people that children and spouses have been killed or maimed in traffic accidents. 
 

The world has awoken somewhat to what the Russian state is. But I cannot stress enough the utter lack of humanity on a personal level the security apparatus is capable of. 

 

Understood. She was low level though since it was her first assignment. She had just been a simple librarian but had been recently divorced with no kids, applied to the State, was accepted, did an intense language program, came back to DC for training, and then WALLA! found herself in Moscow. 

But, to be honest, she'd probably been told to expect it and didn't seem overly traumatized but was a little weirded out by it.

#68535
3 hours ago, bolverk said:

More from Zelensky. I'm seriously considering attending an Austin ISD board meeting and insist they find a school to rename after him.

 

 

 

Erin Burnett would have been able to drown a baby between her legs right then. 

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#68536

Checked the Ukrainian subreddits but couldn't find this incredible clip.

Russian artillerists demonstrated an excellent case of friendly fire on Orikhiv direction.These are interceptions of Russian conversations while it happened. I've made a translation for you.

 

#68537
7 hours ago, The Dog said:

"Hidden mobilization" in Moscow:

1/ Russian construction firms are reportedly being told to send their workers to fight in Ukraine or face losing lucractive contracts from the city of Moscow. It illustrates an ongoing 'hidden mobilisation' as Russia uses every possible option to find manpower for the war. ⬇️

going to be hard to deliver on those contracts if the workers are dying in Ukraine...

Look at russias military. When has delivering on a contract ever been a prerequisite for oligarchs getting paid? 

#68538
4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This debate is a great reminder that we (the collective West) cannot remember or comprehend being in a war that we can’t afford to lose.  The cost of cleanup (for Ukraine) has no meaning if they lose this war. And for us, it only has meaning if they win. Because we aren’t going to help Russia clear mines in their new colony. 

And it's also why Russia is doing everything possible to use their state TV/media to sell this as an existential crisis to Russia, because Putin seems willing to completely destroy their economy and their future demographics in this Quixotic quest of his, and the only way you can sell that is if you convince the Russian people that it's life or death.

2 hours ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Nah, we don’t want them to be able to kill/destroy the soldiers/munitions being used to kill them. Might upset Putin.

With more and more NATO countries saying "yeah, we support Ukraine joining" and with things like Germany hopping on board the "let's supply the fuck out of Ukraine" train, it's uncanny how the West has turned from "let's do the minimum" to "okay, how much can we do and still have Putin not angry" to "Oh, Putin is telling his people that Ukraine will join NATO if Russia doesn't conquer them, well fuck it, Ukraine needs to go ahead and join, because if that's what Putin is selling to his people, we should help him out.!"

I'd be that it's lost on Putin that the West has collectively determined that he's a hollow threat at this point - all of his talking heads promising nuclear fire on European and American capitols, etc., kind of just became the Boy who Cried Wolf.

#68539
47 minutes ago, pops said:

Erin Burnett would have been able to drown a baby between her legs right then. 

He's out there showing European leaders that he doesn't skip arm day.

#68540
Explosions/strikes reported in Sorokyne, Luhansk region. ~135km from the front line.
South of Bakhmut, around Klishchiyivka, Ukrainian defenders have advanced – in some directions by more than a kilometre.North of Bakhmut, around Berkhivka, significant battles are fought with no change in position.Russian invaders are trapped in Bakhmut, unable to manoeuvre.

 

  • Popular Post
#68541
9 hours ago, HOOKEM4 said:

I can't get over how badass Zelenskyy is. It is really interesting to see how a true leader is born under the most insane situation I have ever witnessed. There aren't a whole lot of people that would be able to handle this situation the way he has.

If you must have your president be a tv performer, pick one who can play the piano w his dick over someone who gives douchebags fake job tasks so he can say “you’re fired “ over and over

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#68542
here is a hint.....the US is sending 31 more M109s....the ONLY reason that they would be sending more artillery like that is that the supply of ammo has caught up and the increase in ammo production world wide can now handle the new guns. facts matter

 

#68543
3 minutes ago, The Dog said:
here is a hint.....the US is sending 31 more M109s....the ONLY reason that they would be sending more artillery like that is that the supply of ammo has caught up and the increase in ammo production world wide can now handle the new guns. facts matter

 

That conclusion doesn't seem to follow. It could also be to replace destroyed systems. I don't think we can no one way or another. 

#68544
Erin Burnett would have been able to drown a baby between her legs right then. 
I'd happily volunteer to take that baby's place
#68546
1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

That conclusion doesn't seem to follow. It could also be to replace destroyed systems. I don't think we can no one way or another. 

I don't think they've destroyed three dozen Paladins - they'd be showing a lot of videos off.  Plus, the Russians are on the defensive and not capturing enough ground to get close to any they hit/disable, which means that all Paladins that were hit/damaged would have been recovered and repaired (or parted out).

#68547
1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

If you must have your president be a tv performer, pick one who can play the piano w his dick over someone who gives douchebags fake job tasks so he can say “you’re fired “ over and over

I've shown a few people the video of Zelenskyy "playing" the piano with his dick and the reaction was just about what you would expect.

 

#68548
2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I don't think they've destroyed three dozen Paladins - they'd be showing a lot of videos off.  Plus, the Russians are on the defensive and not capturing enough ground to get close to any they hit/disable, which means that all Paladins that were hit/damaged would have been recovered and repaired (or parted out).

3 dozen paladins, probably not. 3 dozen self propelled or towed artillery in total seems pretty possible. I'm just saying I doubt we can really know from the simple data point of the US sending more Paladins. 

  • Popular Post
#68549

pic.twitter.com/usBCTYrflH
  • Popular Post
#68550

Zelenskyy visits Snake Island. I’m sure Putin is carefully watching from his dacha bunker. 
 

500 days of the full-scale war.Snake Island. The free island of free Ukraine.I am grateful to everyone who fought here against the occupiers. We commemorated the heroes who gave their lives in this battle – one of the most important during the full-scale war.Glory to…

 

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