January 9, 20241 yr 3 hours ago, SuperSport said: Would love to know who's truly responsible, but the unions are pretty good about shielding their own from scrutiny...assuming there was no alcohol or malicious intent involved. Lmfao Boeing outsourced this to avoid dealing with unions. This is what you get when you cut costs to the bone. Fuck ups.
January 9, 20241 yr 11 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said: NTSB says they got emailed 2 pics from "Bob In Portland" that they ID'd as the plug... just chilling in his backyard. https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2024/01/portland-teacher-bob-recounts-finding-alaska-airlines-door-in-yard.html Got a good real world example to use in his Physics class
January 9, 20241 yr 41 minutes ago, bschoolprof said: They are screwing in all the bolts for the engines and wings, right?
January 9, 20241 yr 3 hours ago, elfenix said: it's the same thinking that leads some little consumer geekeroid to change from a 16 oz roll of sausage to a 12 oz roll of sausage. Save money save money…. I want to fly goddamnit.
January 9, 20241 yr UAL has found 5 more planes with loose bolts on plug doors. https://theaircurrent.com/feed/dispatches/united-finds-loose-bolts-on-plug-doors-during-737-max-9-inspections/ Inb4 some more braindead defense of Boeing
January 9, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, Captainant said: Lmfao Boeing outsourced this to avoid dealing with unions. This is what you get when you cut costs to the bone. Fuck ups. spirit's a union shop.
January 9, 20241 yr I can't wait for the online safety meeting at Boeing between management and operations. Now you guys all remember Righty Tighty...
January 9, 20241 yr 30 minutes ago, elfenix said: spirit's a union shop. Boeing doesn't deal with the union, spirit does. Boeing doesn't have to go with spirit, but they do even though Spirit has a fuckin track record of failing to properly bolt bolts https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-urges-737-max-inspections-possible-loose-bolt-faa-2023-12-28/ Edit: this article doesn't link spirit to the loose rudder bolt problem, so my bad on that. However. 737MAXs be having hella loose bolts, yo. Which is generally not advisable Edited January 9, 20241 yr by Captainant
January 9, 20241 yr 10 hours ago, Captainant said: UAL has found 5 more planes with loose bolts on plug doors. https://theaircurrent.com/feed/dispatches/united-finds-loose-bolts-on-plug-doors-during-737-max-9-inspections/ Inb4 some more braindead defense of Boeing I will never understand why anyone would defend a giant corporation. The elmo fanbois, and now Boeing fanbois.
January 9, 20241 yr The idiots on Texags are blaming this all on the blacks and DEI at Boeing. Certainly, that is the clear and obvious cause. [emoji2357]
January 9, 20241 yr 13 minutes ago, cattail said: The idiots on Texags are blaming this all on the blacks and DEI at Boeing. Certainly, that is the clear and obvious cause. Well they are right. Quality QA is racist.
January 9, 20241 yr Well the guy upthread who lives in Portland was right and I was wrong. the door was found in a tree. It had the roller guides fractured. All four locking bolts nowhere to be found.
January 9, 20241 yr 11 hours ago, Captainant said: Boeing doesn't deal with the union, spirit does. Boeing doesn't have to go with spirit, but they do even though Spirit has a fuckin track record of failing to properly bolt bolts Jesus dude give the workers of the world unite bullshit a bit of a fucking break. Boeing is unionized. So is the vendor. What more do you fucking want? Would seem to me its going to boil down to the spec and certification documents on who was responsible for the integrity of the plug. Alaska will seemingly eat some shit here too because as reported the plane had given a few decompression warnings recently
January 9, 20241 yr 13 hours ago, bschoolprof said: They are screwing in all the bolts for the engines and wings, right? Just a second there, Professor....we fixed the glitch....
January 9, 20241 yr 9 minutes ago, Incredulity said: Jesus dude give the workers of the world unite bullshit a bit of a fucking break. Boeing is unionized. So is the vendor. What more do you fucking want? Would seem to me its going to boil down to the spec and certification documents on who was responsible for the integrity of the plug. Alaska will seemingly eat some shit here too because as reported the plane had given a few decompression warnings recently Alaska is notoriously bad at Maintenance. Flight is based on real world Alaska airlines incident, but Whip did not in the end save the day, although the plane was flown upside down for a bit. Edited January 9, 20241 yr by Bateshorn
January 9, 20241 yr 8 minutes ago, Incredulity said: Jesus dude give the workers of the world unite bullshit a bit of a fucking break. Boeing is unionized. So is the vendor. What more do you fucking want? Would seem to me its going to boil down to the spec and certification documents on who was responsible for the integrity of the plug. Alaska will seemingly eat some shit here too because as reported the plane had given a few decompression warnings recently Well for one they should probably be paying their aircraft assembly and machinist folks more than $45k/yr (according to Glassdoor) which is basically $20/hr. It's no wonder they're turning out fast food quality airplanes. They're paying fast food level wages to the people that are building fucking 200 person airlines. Also this isn't just an Alaska airlines thing. United has found multiple planes with the bolts missing upon doing their maintenance checks. This is a "profit above safety" corporate culture issue. I'd like them to fix that culture issue and treat their skilled labor like skilled labor, but that doesn't make beancounters happy
January 9, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, MissingInAction said: I will never understand why anyone would defend a giant corporation. The elmo fanbois, and now Boeing fanbois. Used to know a guy from another message board that was a long time Boeing employee working low level management. He was a company man to the bone. Nobody new anything better than Boeing.
January 9, 20241 yr 22 minutes ago, Captainant said: Well for one they should probably be paying their aircraft assembly and machinist folks more than $45k/yr (according to Glassdoor) which is basically $20/hr. It's no wonder they're turning out fast food quality airplanes. They're paying fast food level wages to the people that are building fucking 200 person airlines. Shouldn't the union take care of that? I have been told REPEATEDLY they are the answer to all economic issues.
January 9, 20241 yr Turning bolts to a torque that the wrench is calibrated to shouldn’t be this spotty. Easy to do, easy to check.
January 9, 20241 yr This reference will get rep from me 100% of the time.Was thinking the same thing.
January 9, 20241 yr 50 minutes ago, Bateshorn said: although the plane was flown upside down for a bit.
January 9, 20241 yr 11 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said: Turning bolts to a torque that the wrench is calibrated to shouldn’t be this spotty. Easy to do, easy to check. The missing bolts are supposed to have cotter pins. So even if the torque is wrong they have a secondary locking method. It feels like the installation was completed halfway and then never completed. Like a shift change snafu.
January 9, 20241 yr 20 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said: Turning bolts to a torque that the wrench is calibrated to shouldn’t be this spotty. Easy to do, easy to check. Just add a little torque paint and voila!
January 9, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, Incredulity said: Like sending the entire world home for months on end and then a resultant massive brain drain of boomer retirements kind of shift change SNAFU? Jesus Christ buddy take a break. I don’t think reading a spec sheet and using a torque wrench is the kind of institutional knowledge that gets lost when employees leave. you don’t stop until you can attribute anything to a policy enacted by your political opponent.
January 9, 20241 yr Just now, Pato del Muerto said: you don’t stop until you can attribute anything to a policy enacted by your political opponent. wrong. both parties enacted the lock downs. Its not a political statement, its a practical statement.
January 9, 20241 yr 11 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said: The missing bolts are supposed to have cotter pins. So even if the torque is wrong they have a secondary locking method. It feels like the installation was completed halfway and then never completed. Like a shift change snafu. We ran into something like that with equipment maintenance. Solution, have QC come in staggered so they were the point of review. Was not perfect, but did improve the situation.
January 9, 20241 yr 49 minutes ago, Captainant said: Well for one they should probably be paying their aircraft assembly and machinist folks more than $45k/yr (according to Glassdoor) which is basically $20/hr. It's no wonder they're turning out fast food quality airplanes. They're paying fast food level wages to the people that are building fucking 200 person airlines. Also this isn't just an Alaska airlines thing. United has found multiple planes with the bolts missing upon doing their maintenance checks. This is a "profit above safety" corporate culture issue. I'd like them to fix that culture issue and treat their skilled labor like skilled labor, but that doesn't make beancounters happy Glassdoor is about as accurate as those NIL reports telling us what athletes are getting. its garbage in/garbage out, and with the latest union contract (mid 23) who knows how accurate the data is. But it seems that most of what I am reading lays the blame on Boeing, rather than Spirit. This sounds plausible, but who knows: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-aero-made-blowout-part-boeing-has-key-role-sources-2024-01-07/ Quote The 737 MAX 9, currently Boeing's largest single-aisle, seating up to 220 people, includes an optional extra door to allow for the approved number of evacuation paths whenever carriers opt to install the maximum number of seats. But most airlines using the jet have chosen a looser layout based on a smaller number of seats and do not need the surplus door, which adds weight and reduces flexibility in the cabin. Instead the door is deactivated before delivery, using a "plug." Other optional doors or fill-in replacement structures were also offered on a predecessor model, the 737-900ER. As part of the production process, Spirit builds fuselages for 737s and sends them by train with the special door assembly “semi-rigged,” one of the people said. “They are fitted but not completed," the person said. At its Renton, Washington, plant, Boeing typically removes the pop-out, or non-functioning, door and uses the gap to load interiors. Then, the part is put back and the installation in completed. Finally, the hull is pressurized to 150% to make sure everything is working correctly, the person said.
January 9, 20241 yr I've been to many oil and gas plants and when they are doing turnarounds. They would assign random people to do closeout inspections. Well, if you have never done a closeout inspection. Then you don't know what you're looking for. A lot of people are too prideful to ask what they are supposed to do for a closeout inspection. So they just shine their flashlight in there and say yep. Looks good to me. If you ever ask them what looks good. That's when you're like hmmm......
January 9, 20241 yr 6 minutes ago, RPM said: On 6 aircraft? I haven't seen any other reports of cotter pins missing or bolts not installed. And it's kind of easier to understand not torquing bolts to spec than it is not installing hardware at all. But yeah since it's just haphazard shit going on then who's to say on the accident airplane that one crew just forgot some parts.
January 9, 20241 yr 15 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said: I haven't seen any other reports of cotter pins missing or bolts not installed. Delta United found 5 faulty plugs. So far. Edited January 9, 20241 yr by RPM
January 9, 20241 yr Hypothetically (asking for a friend) - if you were flying into Seattle this summer would you exclude Alaska Air and favor Delta (both offer direct/non-stop flights), or would you assume that 5-6 months out Boeing & AA will get this shit figured out? Using wiki as a source: Alaska Air - 66 of 231 aircraft are 737 Maxx (all but 1 being Maxx 9's) Delta - 0 of 978 aircraft are 737 Maxx (though the do have 100 Maxx 10's on order) I would fly Southwest for the free luggage - but I don't really want to see Midway, DIA, Sky Harbor or Harry Reid along the way
January 9, 20241 yr 35 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said: Hypothetically (asking for a friend) - if you were flying into Seattle this summer would you exclude Alaska Air and favor Delta (both offer direct/non-stop flights), or would you assume that 5-6 months out Boeing & AA will get this shit figured out? Using wiki as a source: Alaska Air - 66 of 231 aircraft are 737 Maxx (all but 1 being Maxx 9's) Delta - 0 of 978 aircraft are 737 Maxx (though the do have 100 Maxx 10's on order) I would fly Southwest for the free luggage - but I don't really want to see Midway, DIA, Sky Harbor or Harry Reid along the way It's the terrorist attack rule. No place is safer than after a terrorist attack. Those 737s are going to be inspected with a fine tooth comb. Just gotta watch out for mushroom eating pilots
January 9, 20241 yr This is the kind of shit you get when you let companies self-inspect. Needs to be FAA random checks.
January 9, 20241 yr 7 minutes ago, FartingMonk said: Those 737s are going to be inspected with a fine tooth comb. Counterpoint. All 737 max planes just spent months and months grounded.
January 9, 20241 yr 12 minutes ago, FartingMonk said: It's the terrorist attack rule. No place is safer than after a terrorist attack. Those 737s are going to be inspected with a fine tooth comb. Just gotta watch out for mushroom eating pilots The entire Max fleet was grounded for 18 months. Seems like that would have been a good time to inspect the planes with a fine tooth comb.
January 9, 20241 yr 36 minutes ago, Incredulity said: Counterpoint. All 737 max planes just spent months and months grounded. 30 minutes ago, royiv said: The entire Max fleet was grounded for 18 months. Seems like that would have been a good time to inspect the planes with a fine tooth comb. That is very true. But if I had an electrical/electronics issue I wouldn't be checking my doors and windows for tightness
January 9, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, Blotto said: Glassdoor is about as accurate as those NIL reports telling us what athletes are getting. its garbage in/garbage out, and with the latest union contract (mid 23) who knows how accurate the data is. But it seems that most of what I am reading lays the blame on Boeing, rather than Spirit. This sounds plausible, but who knows: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-aero-made-blowout-part-boeing-has-key-role-sources-2024-01-07/ That Renton plant is definitely a union shop and they are around 60 dollars an hour there.
January 9, 20241 yr 4 hours ago, Bateshorn said: Alaska is notoriously bad at Maintenance. What's the basis for your assertion? Their "safety rating" is the same as it is for every other major US airline.
January 9, 20241 yr 4 hours ago, Incredulity said: wrong. both parties enacted the lock downs. Its not a political statement, its a practical statement. Bolt tighteners didn’t WFH, dumbass.
January 9, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, Chopper said: What's the basis for your assertion? Their "safety rating" is the same as it is for every other major US airline. Mostly because of Alaska 261 which was a maintenance failure. I guess Notoriously is probably a bit strong.
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